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Thread: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

  1. #351
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    I didn't insinuate there was a logical problem, I insinuated it was funny. Do you even know what a strawman is?
    Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I insinuated it was funny cause it reminded me of girls in high school:

    Girl #1: I hate Emily, she's a moron!
    Girl #2: Oh, she's actually on the Dean's List this semester...
    Girl #1: She's ugly, though!
    Girl #2: A lot of guys say she's really hot.
    Girl #1: It's probably cause she's a slut!
    Girl #2: I think she's actually only kissed that one guy, I'm sure she's never done anything more with anyone else.
    Girl #1: She's a bitch, she talks behind people's backs.
    Girl #2: I've never heard her do that...
    Girl #1: Hey, do you like Justin Beiber?
    Girl #2: Uhhh...no.
    Girl #1: EMILY ****ING LOVES HIM! Let's hate her together.

    It's just an example of people being against something and throwing any argument they can at it? Immoral? No, you don't agree? THEN IT DOESN'T WORK. Sadly, Boo, the experts don't agree. Maybe people who say torture can work sometimes like Justin Beiber, though, so you can try to attack them with that.



    I already stated it. Did you miss it? Use what works. Making someone physically uncomfortable is fourth down the list, after making them want to help you out of ideology (#1), making them want to help you for a reward, usually financial (#2), making them help you only because you put them in emotional distress (#3). But the idea that there's NEVER EVER a time in which #1-3 would fail but #4 would not is ****ing laughable. Why would someone even propose such an argument?

    Well, probably because don't you just hate Emily! (They try to use anything they can to support their argument, even if it makes virtually zero sense)



    What? I don't give a **** about morality. Don't care. We all have it, it's all subjective: why bother arguing about it? On that note, my favorite movie is Mrs Doubtfire. Yours? Actually, who cares, it too is all subjective.
    If tom plays basketball and is tall enough to dunk, an excellent ball handler, and can shoot from beyond the arch, saying so is not throwing everything at the issue. Noting two issues is only funny if they are not also true. If they are true, not trivial, than there is nothing funny. So trying to make them so, propping them in a way to more easily combat them is the definition of a strawman. Both arguments are true and not trivial. So, you have no real point.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  2. #352
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    If tom plays basketball and is tall enough to dunk, an excellent ball handler, and can shoot from beyond the arch, saying so is not throwing everything at the issue. Noting two issues is only funny if they are not also true. If they are true, not trivial, than there is nothing funny. So trying to make them so, propping them in a way to more easily combat them is the definition of a strawman. Both arguments are true and not trivial. So, you have no real point.
    Well, they're not both true. Which kinda makes the thing funny, like high school girls. That's the point.

    As I've mentioned: it's an absurd position to pretend it when #1-3 doesn't or can't work, #4 can't. It's just silly.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

  3. #353
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Well, they're not both true. Which kinda makes the thing funny, like high school girls. That's the point.

    As I've mentioned: it's an absurd position to pretend it when #1-3 doesn't or can't work, #4 can't. It's just silly.
    This what said you said to begin with; however, they are both true. Both valid arguments. Nor is anyone making the 1-4 argument. Again, what is being argued:

    1. Torture is ineffective. This does not mean there is never a right answer given during torture. It means that what you get is unreliable, and to a point that is more unreliable than any other method. Books are written on this, and people should visit a library more than they google questionable sources,

    2. Regardless of effectiveness, it is also immoral. You seem to agree with that, so I won't go too far into the "who would Jesus torture" argument.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  4. #354
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    This what said you said to begin with; however, they are both true.
    lol no. Who told you this? Who lied to you, friend?

    Both valid arguments. Nor is anyone making the 1-4 argument. Again, what is being argued
    Of course they're not. When it's phrased in that very logical way, their position becomes laughable.

    1. Torture is ineffective. This does not mean there is never a right answer given during torture. It means that what you get is unreliable, and to a point that is more unreliable than any other method. Books are written on this, and people should visit a library more than they google questionable sources,
    This is, quite simply, wrong. Cite your sources. I was a 35M in the military, I have expansive experience with this: you're wrong. There are times when these things work. Yes, they're few and far between. That doesn't make them ineffective anymore than a 3/64 allen key is ineffective because it's useless more than 99% of the time when you're working on a project. It has a specific time and place in which it's useful. So does waterboarding or literally anything else. You saying otherwise doesn't change that, I don't give a **** about your library card or what you read in an article.

    That you could seriously sit there and say "Yes, if building rapport with someone doesn't work, if paying them off doesn't work, if putting them through the emotional wringer doesn't work, waterboarding can't work either" says so much about not only your knowledge of the situation, but your grasp on basic logic. How could you even assume what you're assuming and expect people to take it seriously?

    2. Regardless of effectiveness, it is also immoral. You seem to agree with that, so I won't go too far into the "who would Jesus torture" argument.
    It's a pointless argument. Who cares what Jesus would do? Do you? I don't. Morals are entirely subjective and thus pointless to argue about.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    lol no. Who told you this? Who lied to you, friend?



    Of course they're not. When it's phrased in that very logical way, their position becomes laughable.



    This is, quite simply, wrong. Cite your sources. I was a 35M in the military, I have expansive experience with this: you're wrong. There are times when these things work. Yes, they're few and far between. That doesn't make them ineffective anymore than a 3/64 allen key is ineffective because it's useless more than 99% of the time when you're working on a project. It has a specific time and place in which it's useful. So does waterboarding or literally anything else. You saying otherwise doesn't change that, I don't give a **** about your library card or what you read in an article.

    That you could seriously sit there and say "Yes, if building rapport with someone doesn't work, if paying them off doesn't work, if putting them through the emotional wringer doesn't work, waterboarding can't work either" says so much about not only your knowledge of the situation, but your grasp on basic logic. How could you even assume what you're assuming and expect people to take it seriously?



    It's a pointless argument. Who cares what Jesus would do? Do you? I don't. Morals are entirely subjective and thus pointless to argue about.
    I've read more than a few books in then matter, you being snarky wont change the facts.

    Like I said, you should visit a library, but tomorrow afternoon, when I'm at a computer I will link some sources from you. You should know personal experience is often too narrow. People see what hey want to see. I also spend time with those who have experience there. The discussion often starts with how thy don't sleep nights. Most haven more outs than you. However, neither you nor I can settle the issue that way. There are more objective sources who overwhelmingly support my position.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  6. #356
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    1. Torture is ineffective.
    Fact: Torture works for verifiable information.
    Fact: In a ticking time bomb scenario, torture for verifiable information is a moral obligation.


    Your blanket statements cannot keep you warm.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I've read more than a few books in then matter, you being snarky wont change the facts.

    Like I said, you should visit a library, but tomorrow afternoon, when I'm at a computer I will link some sources from you. You should know personal experience is often too narrow. People see what hey want to see. I also spend time with those who have experience there. The discussion often starts with how thy don't sleep nights. Most haven more outs than you. However, neither you nor I can settle the issue that way. There are more objective sources who overwhelmingly support my position.
    There's nothing snarky about it, it's just the fact. What's funny is that if I had just one example of personal experience that contradicted your position (which I don't), it would make your entire argument untrue, because you're making a logically absurd statement that says it's 100% ineffective. It's not. That said, I do know of examples where it was effective. Proving, then, that there are times that it is effective. Making you, simply, wrong. That's it. I'm very well read on it, Boo: I didn't start learning about interrogation in order to make a political point. Can you say the same?
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    There's nothing snarky about it, it's just the fact. What's funny is that if I had just one example of personal experience that contradicted your position (which I don't), it would make your entire argument untrue, because you're making a logically absurd statement that says it's 100% ineffective. It's not. That said, I do know of examples where it was effective. Proving, then, that there are times that it is effective. Making you, simply, wrong. That's it. I'm very well read on it, Boo: I didn't start learning about interrogation in order to make a political point. Can you say the same?
    Actually, one example would not prove me wrong. Makes me wonder if you have read what I wrote at all. I never used the term 100%. I even address that specifically. So, you're not even well read on what I've said.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  9. #359
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Actually, one example would not prove me wrong. Makes me wonder if you have read what I wrote at all. I never used the term 100%. I even address that specifically. So, you're not even well read on what I've said.
    Jesus Christ. Thank god you're not in charge of anything regarding this. So yes, then, we're in agreement : it can be useful and effective sometimes. Great.

    Allah only knows why it wad like pulling teeth to get there.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Wow, they would tie you up, and hook your genitals to a voltage source in a nano second, yet you defend them against those trying to protect you? That's gratitude for ya.
    Helluvan 'argument', but I understand why. Sounds like you like to watch reruns of 24?

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