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Thread: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

  1. #341
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Ok, point it out if you would be so kind, instead of leaving me to guess. Because I read the entire thread, and I didn't see it. That isn't to say it wasn't there, but I don't see what you are talking about.



    Oh come on... Now you would never do that would you?



    Oh really? Well, leaving the thread 24 hours earlier just when a good debate was taking place, leaving a hanging question, some would say, with the hopes that you could re enter the debate later never having to address the last point made...(that to me is running off) Might be taken as a rather dishonest tactic on your part. Just sayin'
    I assumed you read it all as you said you enjoyed it so much. He claimed there was a disconnect in those arguing torture was ineffective and immoral, saying if it was ineffective you couldn't argue it was immoral. And if it was immoral, you couldn't argue it was ineffective. I was brash enough to say they were not mutually exclusive.

    As for leaving, I received no notification of any response. His last response was not connected to my post. I thought he was done. It is after all kind of a silly position that he holds.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  2. #342
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I assumed you read it all as you said you enjoyed it so much.

    Oh I did, thank you....

    He claimed there was a disconnect in those arguing torture was ineffective and immoral, saying if it was ineffective you couldn't argue it was immoral. And if it was immoral, you couldn't argue it was ineffective. I was brash enough to say they were not mutually exclusive.
    I assume you are talking about this post?:

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder
    I've always found it weird that the same people that think torture is ineffective also think it's immoral. Just...odd. You get these weird arguments wherein people are forced to defend the position that torture can never, ever, ever work, because they don't like the idea of using it.
    As for leaving, I received no notification of any response. His last response was not connected to my post. I thought he was done. It is after all kind of a silly position that he holds.
    Really Joe? Did you forget how notifications work? You didn't receive one because the last posting to you was the one I linked to, and your answer to that post was to only respond to the opening irrelevant portion, leaving the heart of the substance out of your reply, then you never came back to it...

    As to whether or not his position is silly, is your opinion of it, and has nothing to do with the argument itself. You should instead of trying so hard to marginalize the argument, focus on your answer to it so that we as readers can see both sides. Because to read through it, the appearance is that you chose to only address the silly, and leave the substance alone, then you left for 24 hours.

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  3. #343
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Oh I did, thank you....



    I assume you are talking about this post?:





    Really Joe? Did you forget how notifications work? You didn't receive one because the last posting to you was the one I linked to, and your answer to that post was to only respond to the opening irrelevant portion, leaving the heart of the substance out of your reply, then you never came back to it...

    As to whether or not his position is silly, is your opinion of it, and has nothing to do with the argument itself. You should instead of trying so hard to marginalize the argument, focus on your answer to it so that we as readers can see both sides. Because to read through it, the appearance is that you chose to only address the silly, and leave the substance alone, then you left for 24 hours.

    Strawmen are in general silly as they are a fallacy. And yes, I popped I'm and saw your post, but knew nothing of his.

    If you see some substance to the fallacy, please share. But the fact remains the two ideas are not mutually exclusive.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  4. #344
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Strawmen are in general silly as they are a fallacy. And yes, I popped I'm and saw your post, but knew nothing of his.

    If you see some substance to the fallacy, please share. But the fact remains the two ideas are not mutually exclusive.
    Ummm...I never said they were mutually exclusive. Can you find where I said that, or is this a strawman you're employing? Ironic.

    I think it's funny because if people think it's immoral that should be enough. Likewise (albeit ignorant) if they think it's ineffective. But people that are against it unfailingly argue both, not because they think/know, but because they're against it and they'll throw everything but the kitchen sink at it to try to "win".

    Now, I already made my case about different methods having varying levels of success dependent upon the source or subject, and many other factors. Your counterpoint is...what? "No, waterboarding or stress positions or torture are NEVER the best for a certain source under certain circumstances"? If that's your position, you're flatly wrong. If that's not your position, we're in agreement.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

  5. #345
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Ummm...I never said they were mutually exclusive. Can you find where I said that, or is this a strawman you're employing? Ironic.
    That's a good point. Boo's latest tactic is to claim that those responding to his postings either don't read the entire posts, or that they have some block in understanding them. It is funny that the series of posts he is speaking of from you only garner response of partial portions of those postings, then a feigned ignorance of what else was said in the post in question. So, your analysis of his own post on this matter are indeed yes, a strawman argument.

    I think it's funny because if people think it's immoral that should be enough. Likewise (albeit ignorant) if they think it's ineffective. But people that are against it unfailingly argue both, not because they think/know, but because they're against it and they'll throw everything but the kitchen sink at it to try to "win".

    Now, I already made my case about different methods having varying levels of success dependent upon the source or subject, and many other factors. Your counterpoint is...what? "No, waterboarding or stress positions or torture are NEVER the best for a certain source under certain circumstances"? If that's your position, you're flatly wrong. If that's not your position, we're in agreement.

    I think the bottom line on this so called torture is best looked at in a compartmentalized fashion...1. Is the act of what is being done actually torture, or simply severe tactic to garner cooperation? 2. Is the subject in question involved at a level that would yield actual intelligence that would be useful? 3. Are the members of the interrogation team of sound enough mind to know the differences between interrogation, and torture, and where that line is? 4. Do we as a nation place the good of the many at the expense of the few as an unfortunate choice, but one none the less in certain circumstances necessary? 5. Are the methods employed carried out for sadistic purpose, or are they done extremely sparingly, and only in cases that are deemed absolutely crucial to the saving of innocent life that otherwise would be lost needlessly?

    I think if we answer those questions we start to see the soundness, and necessity of our part in three incidents that bunched up many anti war liberals during the Bush administration. Funny that they can still argue this torture pap, yet, their own elected President is recently revealed to have continued the rendition program, but the criticism tends not to address the present, but rather to go back to the past to continue to bash the former President for this. Is it partisan? Purely.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Ummm...I never said they were mutually exclusive. Can you find where I said that, or is this a strawman you're employing? Ironic.

    I think it's funny because if people think it's immoral that should be enough. Likewise (albeit ignorant) if they think it's ineffective. But people that are against it unfailingly argue both, not because they think/know, but because they're against it and they'll throw everything but the kitchen sink at it to try to "win".

    Now, I already made my case about different methods having varying levels of success dependent upon the source or subject, and many other factors. Your counterpoint is...what? "No, waterboarding or stress positions or torture are NEVER the best for a certain source under certain circumstances"? If that's your position, you're flatly wrong. If that's not your position, we're in agreement.
    No, both are actually correct. It is ineffective and immoral. There is no logical problem noting this. By insinuating that there is, you do create a strawman. You may disagree with one or both, but not that one has to argue one or he other.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  7. #347
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    So...you don't really have any argument at all. Okay. But thanks for your VERY STRONG EMOTIONS on this matter all the same.
    So what is YOUR argument? Assuming you can state it in a sentence or 3?

    That assault is legal under certain conditions? Conditions to be determined by some government talking head? Some government sycophant? As long as there is a memorandum signed by a superior officer, any sort of human mistreatment is legal?

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Oh, that was just awesome!!! I don't think I have seem Boo give up so quickly, and completely as OWO just dispatched him there in that back and forth....Even with his recent pilot fish actor Henery David....I enjoyed that....
    Pat yourself on the back, good buddy! Give yourself a gold star on your forehead too!

  9. #349
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    So what is YOUR argument? Assuming you can state it in a sentence or 3?

    That assault is legal under certain conditions? Conditions to be determined by some government talking head? Some government sycophant? As long as there is a memorandum signed by a superior officer, any sort of human mistreatment is legal?

    Wow, they would tie you up, and hook your genitals to a voltage source in a nano second, yet you defend them against those trying to protect you? That's gratitude for ya.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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  10. #350
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, both are actually correct. It is ineffective and immoral. There is no logical problem noting this. By insinuating that there is, you do create a strawman. You may disagree with one or both, but not that one has to argue one or he other.
    I didn't insinuate there was a logical problem, I insinuated it was funny. Do you even know what a strawman is?
    Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I insinuated it was funny cause it reminded me of girls in high school:

    Girl #1: I hate Emily, she's a moron!
    Girl #2: Oh, she's actually on the Dean's List this semester...
    Girl #1: She's ugly, though!
    Girl #2: A lot of guys say she's really hot.
    Girl #1: It's probably cause she's a slut!
    Girl #2: I think she's actually only kissed that one guy, I'm sure she's never done anything more with anyone else.
    Girl #1: She's a bitch, she talks behind people's backs.
    Girl #2: I've never heard her do that...
    Girl #1: Hey, do you like Justin Beiber?
    Girl #2: Uhhh...no.
    Girl #1: EMILY ****ING LOVES HIM! Let's hate her together.

    It's just an example of people being against something and throwing any argument they can at it? Immoral? No, you don't agree? THEN IT DOESN'T WORK. Sadly, Boo, the experts don't agree. Maybe people who say torture can work sometimes like Justin Beiber, though, so you can try to attack them with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    So what is YOUR argument? Assuming you can state it in a sentence or 3?
    I already stated it. Did you miss it? Use what works. Making someone physically uncomfortable is fourth down the list, after making them want to help you out of ideology (#1), making them want to help you for a reward, usually financial (#2), making them help you only because you put them in emotional distress (#3). But the idea that there's NEVER EVER a time in which #1-3 would fail but #4 would not is ****ing laughable. Why would someone even propose such an argument?

    Well, probably because don't you just hate Emily! (They try to use anything they can to support their argument, even if it makes virtually zero sense)

    That assault is legal under certain conditions? Conditions to be determined by some government talking head? Some government sycophant? As long as there is a memorandum signed by a superior officer, any sort of human mistreatment is legal?
    What? I don't give a **** about morality. Don't care. We all have it, it's all subjective: why bother arguing about it? On that note, my favorite movie is Mrs Doubtfire. Yours? Actually, who cares, it too is all subjective.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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