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Thread: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Sure. But then that leads to the position that torture has never and could never work. And of course such absolutes are pretty absurd, so...
    That's actually not the argument. The argument is that it is ineffective an that you're more likely to get misinformation. I can point to one concrete and verifiable case. Look up al Libi. We tortured him, got misinformation, and used it. A stopped clock is right twice a day, but not effective at keeping time. Torture is much the same way.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    That's actually not the argument. The argument is that it is ineffective an that you're more likely to get misinformation. I can point to one concrete and verifiable case. Look up al Libi. We tortured him, got misinformation, and used it. A stopped clock is right twice a day, but not effective at keeping time. Torture is much the same way.
    So now you're also speaking for everyone that says torture is both immoral and ineffective?

    Anything can be effective in the right circumstances. It's all about proper application of tactics, no matter what we're talking about, from interrogation to basketball to college writing. Randomly taking a whole measure off the table because it's immoral? Okay. Because it's ineffective? lol
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    So now you're also speaking for everyone that says torture is both immoral and ineffective?

    Anything can be effective in the right circumstances. It's all about proper application of tactics, no matter what we're talking about, from interrogation to basketball to college writing. Randomly taking a whole measure off the table because it's immoral? Okay. Because it's ineffective? lol
    Your post has both the appearance and the odor of pure sophistry with political overtones.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    So now you're also speaking for everyone that says torture is both immoral and ineffective?

    Anything can be effective in the right circumstances. It's all about proper application of tactics, no matter what we're talking about, from interrogation to basketball to college writing. Randomly taking a whole measure off the table because it's immoral? Okay. Because it's ineffective? lol
    No, I'm speaking to the overall argument. You can anyone to have said anything. But the real overall argument is often quite different.

    However, the literature on techniques states clearly that other methods are far more effective even when torture is done right. Torture is only really good at getting confessions.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    Your post has both the appearance and the odor of pure sophistry with political overtones.
    Ummm...okay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, I'm speaking to the overall argument. You can anyone to have said anything. But the real overall argument is often quite different.
    Who are you to pick up the banner for what an argument is? I don't understand this.

    However, the literature on techniques states clearly that other methods are far more effective even when torture is done right. Torture is only really good at getting confessions.
    Sometimes other methods are more effective. Sometimes they're not. That's kind of the point. If there was one method that always worked, or was always the most effective, interrogating people would be much easier. It's funny because listening to NPR as I drove into work, immediately after my previous post, I heard some folks reviewing this movie. They pointed out that the torture was marginally effective in it, at another point giving a dude a Lamborghini was somewhat effective, and the most effective intel was derived over lunch. Now, I haven't seen the movie, but I would imagine that the lunch itself wasn't the point, it was the rapport built with the source, which that lunch was representative of, that was.

    And that's exactly as it is in reality: of course the best course of action is to build a rapport with the guy and make him genuinely want to help you; the second best is just to pay him off (assuming you have the ICF for it, which often you won't, but whatever); the last and least useful method in general is to make him uncomfortable to the point that he spills his guts to give you the intel- that's what waterboarding or even torture falls into. But sometimes the first and second methods won't work or just plain aren't options. Then the best route is to go with three. That's about effectiveness, and that's all. I know to some people it's an anti- or pro-Bush talking point, but...it's really not.

    Now the legality for waterboarding can be up in the air. Whatever you want to argue there, I really don't care, but if you say that it's clearly allowed or clearly not allowed...well, that's just incorrect. But someone's subjective interpretation of the UN's Convention against Torture? Sure, whatever you think.

    I just laugh when people argue against that: "No! It will never work! It's only good for confessions! I read it in a NEWSPAPER ARTICLE!!!" lol, okay buddy.
    Last edited by OldWorldOrder; 01-04-13 at 04:16 PM.
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    And do they base this on any knowledge, studies, or first hand information? Or is that just their feelings talking?
    Who knows. I've heard people from both sides use that argument when convenient.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Who are you to pick up the banner for what an argument is? I don't understand this.
    This is kind of an odd response. Do you just want to pick some notion out of thin air and expect everyone to act as if that's where the real debate is?

    I'm sorry if it disappoints that it doesn't always work that way. Now, I made a few points. Do you have any counter argument?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Is it odd? I'm responding to something I've seen, then you come in and say "No, you haven't seen that, you've seen this!" Ummm...okay.

    Anyway, I made the counter argument. I guess you missed it.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Then don't fly?



    Well.... That Health Insurance thing is new and I am not sure how it works as I am living overseas.... as to the rest, don't start a business then.. they can't "force" you.
    No, the government cannot force you to start a business. Good point.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    No, the government cannot force you to start a business. Good point.
    Thank goodness for that...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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