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Thread: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

  1. #251
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Because the president isn't king.
    He certainly thinks he is...Need we pull all the times he mentioned "going around congress" or the times he actually has?

    He needed congress and the republican fear machine was quite successful.
    Stunning. In one breath you say he isn't a king, and in the very next you castigate congress for not rolling over to every whim he has...

    We cannot pretend we don't remember the events, or that there were not factors that influenced what happened.
    What kind of slippery language is this? Remember what specifically? Lay it out, and don't give me that "I have before" crap. This is a filler line meant to muddy the conversation and leaving you an out.

    However, gitmo wasn't on my lst.
    Bull! all one has to do is read your arguments. You clearly think that those in custody in Gitmo are there in error, and innocent, if not all, then enough that you don't think they should be there in the first place...Here is a good example of that, just read the progression of the thread...

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/2012-u...detainees.html

    There are others, all the way back through the argument, you have expressed views that if not explicit in calling for the close of Gitmo, then on the broader argument of whether of not the entire endeavor is just. All you are doing is playing semantics. It is highly dishonest at best.

    As the silly notion of cutting and running, it misses the point that both were an overreaction to begin with, that was ill conceived and did more harm than good.
    That's your opinion. And even with all the information that is known, rightly, or wrongly in the end you don't have a say anymore than I do, and that burns you up.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Because the president isn't king. He needed congress and the republican fear machine was quite successful. We cannot pretend we don't remember the events, or that there were not factors that influenced what happened. However, gitmo wasn't on my lst.
    He needed Congress and got Congress, and now you say it was the |Democrats who were frightened of the Republican 'fear machine'. You do not appear to have a coherent thought available to you, and this is so typically left.

    There were factors that influenced what happened? No kidding?? Are you just trying to fill up space here and hoping it might be considered logical debate?

    As the silly notion of cutting and running, it misses the point that both were an overreaction to begin with, that was ill conceived and did more harm than good.
    You said there was a continuum between Presidents but it seems now that this only applies in certain areas. If America is at war then the country is at war and must win that war. It is not wise for another President to come along and say we changed our minds, we are not at war after all and only want peace. Do you seriously believe that your enemies will go for that? It is not the United States who decides where, how or when wars will be fought or whether there is peace or no peace, yet that seems to be what too many Americans appear to believe. This is incredibly naive and dangerous.
    Last edited by Grant; 12-30-12 at 12:43 PM.

  3. #253
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    He certainly thinks he is...Need we pull all the times he mentioned "going around congress" or the times he actually has?



    Stunning. In one breath you say he isn't a king, and in the very next you castigate congress for not rolling over to every whim he has...



    What kind of slippery language is this? Remember what specifically? Lay it out, and don't give me that "I have before" crap. This is a filler line meant to muddy the conversation and leaving you an out.



    Bull! all one has to do is read your arguments. You clearly think that those in custody in Gitmo are there in error, and innocent, if not all, then enough that you don't think they should be there in the first place...Here is a good example of that, just read the progression of the thread...

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/2012-u...detainees.html

    There are others, all the way back through the argument, you have expressed views that if not explicit in calling for the close of Gitmo, then on the broader argument of whether of not the entire endeavor is just. All you are doing is playing semantics. It is highly dishonest at best.



    That's your opinion. And even with all the information that is known, rightly, or wrongly in the end you don't have a say anymore than I do, and that burns you up.
    J, you have to stop reading into what is written that isn't there. I merely pointed out that the president, any president, needs congress. Period.

    And no matter how I feel about Gitmo, it is a fact that I did not mention it in our conversation. So take a deep breath and try to stay within the context of what is said.

    Nor do I deny my views or speak for others. But I gave a specific list here.

    J, I have. Brother, he's an idiot, and he thinks the government is putting chips in our ass to monitor us, and that space creatures are kidnapping people. He makes the same arguments about opinions you do.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  4. #254
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    He needed Congress and got Congress, and now you say it was the |Democrats who were frightened of the Republican 'fear machine'. You do not appear to have a coherent thought available to you, and this is so typically left.

    There were factors that influenced what happened? No kidding?? Are you just trying to fill up space here and hoping it might be considered logical debate?



    You said there was a continuum between Presidents but it seems now that this only applies in certain areas. If America is at war then the country is at war and must win that war. It is not wise for another President to come along and say we changed our minds, we are not at war after all and only want peace. Do you seriously believe that your enemies will go for that? It is not the United States who decides where, how or when wars will be fought or whether there is peace or no peace, yet that seems to be what too many Americans appear to believe. This is incredibly naive and dangerous.
    It's a very coherent thought. You just have to grasp and follow. Congress was, as always, concerned about being re-elected. Just as that fear made reasonable republicans like Grassley in Iowa cave and side with the tea party over death panels, despite being the architect of the idea, democrats caved to the fear mongering. You can hide from tis fact all you want, but that is factually what happened.

    A continuum doesn't remove responsibility or praise for stupid and wise decisions. We never declared war (a huge mistake) and instead acted in an imperial manner. Spent much in terms of lives and money for eventually nothing. We never could have been defeated by al Qeada or any other such group. We elevated their status, training the next group of terrorist who will be killing people for decades to come (I think the CIA entwined this).

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    You confuse things concerning 03. Bush hurt our credibility. That's a different issue. He also hard no moral core, lie in an area some of us could not accept, putting Americans in harms way needlessly, and largely did more harm than good concerning the war on terror.

    And gitmo being open is the fault of conservative fear mongers as much as anyone else. You want we can revisit the Jordan notion that conservatives are never responsible for their actions. I'll leave that up to you.
    Can you provide a concrete example of what you are talking about when you say that Bush lied?

    It's just my opinion, but Bush has more moral core in his discarded toenail clippings than all the liberals in the universe have put together.

    And it's been 12 years since a major terrorist attack, and the current President is pretty much following the previous President's policies on the WoT all down the line. So much for more harm than good.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    Can you provide a concrete example of what you are talking about when you say that Bush lied?

    It's just my opinion, but Bush has more moral core in his discarded toenail clippings than all the liberals in the universe have put together.

    And it's been 12 years since a major terrorist attack, and the current President is pretty much following the previous President's policies on the WoT all down the line. So much for more harm than good.
    That Saddam was growing and gathering. Most knew there was one left over weapons, but Bush hyped it. By doing what he IG called an inappropriate use of intel, using the doubted intel the got from torturing al Libi, using Chalibi and his heroes in error, and ignoring information that disproved their claims, Bush created a false picture.

    We can go over all hat again, but we all know just as some will always see 9/11 as an inside job. Others will never look honestly at Bush's deceptions.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    My misreading? Or your purposely piss poor articulation? You are pathetically dishonest Joe, I think for the best we are both done replying to each other for a while.
    Translation: I've fallen, and I can't get up.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It's a very coherent thought. You just have to grasp and follow. Congress was, as always, concerned about being re-elected. Just as that fear made reasonable republicans like Grassley in Iowa cave and side with the tea party over death panels, despite being the architect of the idea, democrats caved to the fear mongering. You can hide from tis fact all you want, but that is factually what happened.
    So Democrats and Republicans, as well as their leaders, are all afraid. And the people who elect them? Are they afraid too?

    A continuum doesn't remove responsibility or praise for stupid and wise decisions. We never declared war (a huge mistake) and instead acted in an imperial manner.
    So behaving in "an Imperial manner" may have offended your enemies and made them angry with you? That frightens you?
    Spent much in terms of lives and money for eventually nothing.
    It's certainly nothing now because of Obama's retreats. The waste of lives, the costs of the war, all that investment is wasted. All that comes out of it is that Americans cannot be trusted to win a war and that the American public, and their leaders, will turn on each other in a time of crisis.

    That was not the America of the past. Now it weaker and more subject to anti American propaganda than ever before, and much of it from within. There is no longer any pride in being an American, especially from the left.

    We never could have been defeated by al Qeada or any other such group. We elevated their status, training the next group of terrorist who will be killing people for decades to come (I think the CIA entwined this).
    Yes, i'm familiar with this refrain. America gets attacked and it's America's fault. This self loathing has reached new dimensions when a murderous, misogynist bunch of misfit terrorists like Al Qaeda can get the benefit of any doubt when dealing with an arm of the American people. And you say you cannot be defeated?

    You have been defeated, and from within. You're just not astute enough to realize it.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    So Democrats and Republicans, as well as their leaders, are all afraid. And the people who elect them? Are they afraid too?

    So behaving in "an Imperial manner" may have offended your enemies and made them angry with you? That frightens you?


    It's certainly nothing now because of Obama's retreats. The waste of lives, the costs of the war, all that investment is wasted. All that comes out of it is that Americans cannot be trusted to win a war and that the American public, and their leaders, will turn on each other in a time of crisis.

    That was not the America of the past. Now it weaker and more subject to anti American propaganda than ever before, and much of it from within. There is no longer any pride in being an American, especially from the left.



    Yes, i'm familiar with this refrain. America gets attacked and it's America's fault. This self loathing has reached new dimensions when a murderous, misogynist bunch of misfit terrorists like Al Qaeda can get the benefit of any doubt when dealing with an arm of the American people. And you say you cannot be defeated?

    You have been defeated, and from within. You're just not astute enough to realize it.
    Yes, congress critters do react all too often to protect their jobs. Yes.

    And no. I think behaving imperialisticly is a mistake. We don't rule the world, no should we want to.

    Obama largely held to the Iraq timeline, one reached Nader Bush. I have no problem with that. He handled Afghanistan poor, using a surge tactic even the generals admitted could fail even if they got all they asked for. Democracies have trouble maintaining needless conflicts like this, as well they shoud. We should learn and make sure there I a real need before recklessly entering into them, and this has always been true of American. You mistakenly seem to be comparing justified and need sacrifice with these more modern police actions that are not valid or proper.

    And no one said it was America's fault. Is your argument so weak that you can't respond to what was actually Said?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray410 View Post
    Certainly the Muslims would never torture anyone. That wouldn't fit in the with the liberal requirement for worship of all enemies of the United States.
    Certainly the radical Muslims torture. And if you approve of these tactics, you are even worse than they are. Anyone condoning this needs to move to a Muslim country. At least they will be around those of their own kind.

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