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Thread: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

  1. #241
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make, but the UCMJ is the appropriate set of laws for soldiers on the battlefield.
    We were talking about laws, and who is subject to them. It is still the "consent of the governed" debate. Unfortunately, consent does not stretch half so far as the ability to project force.

    To an AQ fighter, there is no such thing as recognized due process, not administered by Americans at any rate. The point I am trying to make is that there is little in common with the actions of police in a free society and any battlefield, anywhere. We do things in this country as a matter of course that people in other countries find barbaric, and our excuse is "due process". The real question is: well, so what? The right of rule passes to those with the ability to enforce said right... not by some nebulous intangible written on a piece of paper.

    Do we throw people into prison? Yeah, we do, and we notionally agree with the methods that put people there and tacitly approve of what happens to them when they are there. My entire point is that there is nothing morally different between what we do to prisoners in this country and what we do to enemy combatants. In both cases, our actions fit the legal definitions of assault and battery. So, we are back to the ends and means argument. Do the ends justify the means? If "torture" was effective at it's stated purpose - gaining information - would it's use have some legitimacy? And further, how should we define "torture"? As wanton brutality that doesn't work? As unsavory methods that should be avoided, regardless of efficacy? As a political third rail?
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Well, the Consent of the Governed is a noble concept, but nothing more.

    If anybody thinks we are governed by "consent of the governed", he or she is kidding herself.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    BWAHHHAAAAA! That's just priceless....As if you know all....What a buffoon.
    Yet another emotional response. Shocking.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Me fear too much?


    I would rather walk on to an airplane unmolested and take my chances with the terrorists than having strangers messing with my person. It is obviously the American government who initiated these crazy rules who is running scared here.

    Richard Reid had a bomb in his shoe, a member of the public stops him, and now all Americans are having to remove their shoes at airports. Who is running scared here? And who are having the last laugh every time an American is getting strip searched in his own country by his fellow Americans, and without due process? Now that they line up like sheep for this humiliating treatment can cavity searches be far behind?



    The left will always keep the faith in troubled times, that's certain. They will never be able to shift course, despite icebergs approaching from every angle. Their faith conquers every reality.
    Yes, your side fears too much. The overreaction was massive. Invaded two countries, cost billions of dollars, spent thousands of lives, spied on very one, removed due process, resorted to torture, and made riding an airplane a real hassle and more. On the list, the most reasonable is the airline bit, despite being an overreaction. You guys didn't change course away from any iceberg, but rammed into as any as possible in a reckless panic, if that's the analogy you want to use.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  5. #245
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    It really is unfortunate that "advanced interrogation methods" actually work.
    ...and you base this on what?....

    (Its nice when people that have no expertise as a witness provide some support for their assertions lest their posts be a waste of cyberspace)

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Yet another emotional response. Shocking.
    Is this the new "bait" Joe? Just keep calling every post an emotional response to bait a rules violation? Grow up will ya?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    ...and you base this on what?....

    (Its nice when people that have no expertise as a witness provide some support for their assertions lest their posts be a waste of cyberspace)
    An understanding of psychology, sociology, and some first hand knowledge. I even spoke to that some later in the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo, post #58
    The common thread between syndromes like Stockholm Syndrome and Battered Person Syndrome is traumatic bonding. The mind's psychological defenses kick in when presented with traumatic situations (not necessarily just physical or emotional abuse), and typical responses include identification with those who appear to be in charge, switching of allegiance, and even the feeling that one's captors are omniscient (especially when exposed to physical violence or the threat of physical violence... but not just in those cases).

    Again, though, that's why I said "unfortunately". The methods do, in fact, work, but the basis for their operation are quite unfortunate.
    Last edited by Gonzo Rodeo; 12-29-12 at 08:55 PM.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

  8. #248
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Is this the new "bait" Joe? Just keep calling every post an emotional response to bait a rules violation? Grow up will ya?
    Not baiting j. You have refused to answer points but respond ip with silliness. I can only conclude that's all you have. Give a valid response and we might be able tom have a real conversation.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Yes, your side fears too much. The overreaction was massive. Invaded two countries, cost billions of dollars, spent thousands of lives, spied on very one, removed due process, resorted to torture, and made riding an airplane a real hassle and more. On the list, the most reasonable is the airline bit, despite being an overreaction. You guys didn't change course away from any iceberg, but rammed into as any as possible in a reckless panic, if that's the analogy you want to use.
    My side wanted that?

    If Obama and the Democrats wants to eliminate body searchs at the airport, or close down Guantanamo, why not do it?

    And it is the left who has cut and run from both from Afghanistan and Iraq, as they do from any conflict, and leaving it open to more takeovers of radical Islam, just as has happened in Egypt and soon throughout the Middle East. That's where leftist thinking is especially dangerous. There is no reality. no consideration for the future and no thought of consequences apart from the moment.

  10. #250
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    My side wanted that?

    If Obama and the Democrats wants to eliminate body searchs at the airport, or close down Guantanamo, why not do it?

    And it is the left who has cut and run from both from Afghanistan and Iraq, as they do from any conflict, and leaving it open to more takeovers of radical Islam, just as has happened in Egypt and soon throughout the Middle East. That's where leftist thinking is especially dangerous. There is no reality. no consideration for the future and no thought of consequences apart from the moment.
    Because the president isn't king. He needed congress and the republican fear machine was quite successful. We cannot pretend we don't remember the events, or that there were not factors that influenced what happened. However, gitmo wasn't on my lst.

    As the silly notion of cutting and running, it misses the point that both were an overreaction to begin with, that was ill conceived and did more harm than good.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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