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Thread: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

  1. #201
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    The legal definition of assault is "an intentional act by one person that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent harmful or offensive contact." What what we know about prison, the act of being sentenced is assault.

    The way you use the world "assault," it is clear you mean "battery." The legal definition of battery is "an intentional unpermitted act causing harmful or offensive contact with the "person" of another." An uncooperative prisoner who does not wish to enter his cell will be forcefully placed in his cell (or into another cell, in solitary), which constitutes battery by the definition.

    You permit that "society" can decide what is right and what is wrong, making the intentional act of a judge handing sentencing down unto an individual (which creates an apprehension of an imminent harmful or offensive contact) and then ordering the bailiff to remand that person into custody (an intentional unpermitted act causing harmful or offensive contact) to be fine and dandy. In any other context, those actions constitute assault and battery, by you accept the definition that this is acceptable and permitted. When that person then goes to prison (where he may get physically battered, raped, or killed), that is ok with you... because some guy in a robe said it was. And then that person may be placed in a tiny cell and cut off from human contact for MONTHS, all on the declaration of a non-elected private citizen (the warden)... and you're ok with that!

    So, my question is why do you not allow for a non-physically harmful method of interrogation? If the word "torture" is defined as "things Henry David thinks are torture," you would have a point, but that isn't how the world works. If the entire basis of your argument comes down to the consent of the governed (which it does), then what makes the Judicial Branch the end-all-be-all power to decide that a warden can essentially torture an individual as he sees fit? The entire line of logic rests on circular reasoning - torture is defined as those things that have been defined as torture. Everything else is "not torture," including some of the very same acts, only when carried out by other parties.
    I appreciate all the good definitions.

    Actually, I DO allow for a non-physically harmful method of interrogation. Psychological trauma CAN be inflicted, and would certainly qualify as torture in my book, depending upon conditions. I try to keep things in perspective, and to some degree or another, situational ethics might very well apply.

    I am only human.

    When a person is duly convicted of a crime against others, as opposed to a crime against the state or a victimless crime, then he must be punished in accordance with the law and due process. I do not object to the death penalty, though the way we administer it leaves alot to be desired.

    Sleep deprivation is torture, and an example of your non-physical (not entirely accurate, but suffices for discussion) battery.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    ...I do not object to the death penalty, though the way we administer it leaves alot to be desired....

    Wait a minute....Most penalties of the death sentence are carried out today by lethal injection. The prisoner is put under anesthesia before the lethal injection as far as a I know...

    So in what way of administration do you object to?
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    I agree up to a point, but you miss the fact that "what people" want is often the wrong view of things. Fox News (yes I brought that in) is a classic example. They "make" the news the viewers want... truthful or not. It is no different than the movies. A western from the 1930s portrait the Indians as savages that need put down by the heroic US military. That was the view of the American people, thanks to biased history books and basically a whole country in denial. The reality is that the US military and politicians of the time were brutal mass murderers that committed genocide. Problem is, over the century and a half, the people involved.. Custer, Grant and so on, are seen as American hero's who battled the evil Indian and that view is hard to change. The Japanese are another classic example.. their WW2 record. In total denial.

    Movies themselves dont have to be 100% factual per say, but when you make a movie about a historical point in history, then some sort of accuracy is a must.. else it is just another tired propaganda movie....

    Let me give you a good example. Many American's believe they won WW2. They were the heroes coming to save their poor European cousins. War movies are always from the American point of view and rarely do we have one from the British/Canadian/French let alone the German. The American trooper never does anything wrong and we both know that is simply not the truth or factually correct. This view is because of their history books and their movies.. especially their movies.

    Now the actual factual part of WW2 is a whole different picture. Yes there were many American troops in Europe, but in sheer numbers there were more Russian, and the Brits also had almost 6 million under arms in WW2. And on the battlefield it was the Brits and Russians that were the unsung heroes of the war... take the breakout of Normandy. Movie after movie depicts the brave American GI being the key to breaking out Normandy and start the German retreat across western Europe. Now the reality is that it was actually the British that made it possible because they held a huge amount of German troops in check and defeated them at Caen. The American's basically met very little resistance once they got of the beaches... and yes here they got a lot of resistance. But no one talks much about the battle of Caen in the importance of D-Day and the break out of Normandy. It is the stories of the 101st Airborne, or the 82nd Airborne, or the stories from Omaha and Utah beaches that are used over and over, where as the British and Commonwealth landings on Junno and Sword and Gold are rarely talked about. And when talking about Omaha and Utah, it is rarely mentioned that much of the hardship on those beaches was due to American incompetence rather than planned German resistance. Once in a while it is mentioned in D-Day movies, but is quickly glossed over. Or look at the Mulberry harbors... ever heard of them? British invention, highly successful and key to the landings... the American's dismissed these harbors and the one they had was destroyed to American arrogance and incompetence (they basically did not follow the instructions... ). But without the British Mulberry harbors, then the invasion would have failed. Or the funny tanks that cleared mine fields, or the floating tanks.. all British inventions and yes the American's thought they were failures... because they lost a lot of troops in them.. and they never mention that the troops died because the tanks were released too far from shore... and yet today... the US armed forces use the very same designs in their tanks to clear mines or get tanks to shore.. ironic eh?

    Take one of my favorite war movies.. Patton. At the time of the release it was heavily criticized by many because of some of the context. The Battle of Kasserine, one of the biggest defeats in American military history is mentioned in the movie as it is the key part for the appointment of Patton. They show dead GI's... wtf! They show dead GI's being stripped by the locals. They show incompetence undisciplined American troops. All factual and all shocking at the time. And yet they dont in the movie go so far to state that the defeat was due to incompetence from the military brass at the time, combined with lack of training and basic arrogance. But they do portrait the American solider in a negative light.. well barely, which at the time was revolutionary. Up to this movie.. Kasserine was rarely mentioned.. wonder why..

    Ever wondered why there are so few movies about America's involvement in WW1? Think about that a bit..

    It is things like this that over the last 100 years of cinema history (and especially American cinema) has formed false views of history that we only now are slowly trying to change.

    More and more movies are more and more accurate and differ from the usual set view of historical events... there is a long way to go but it is a start.
    We didn't win the war but without America the war probably would have been won by the Germans and certainly by the Japanese. If you really want to get into who did what you have to go far deeper than the number of soldiers on the battlefield. You have to look at Lend-Lease to both the Russians and certainly the British, who, without our aid, would have been forced to surrender.

    The Russians certainly did their part as well... but why would we make movies (movies are for a profit and not for education, BTW) about our Cold War enemies winning or about the British doing what we were also doing? Just doesn't make sense. Making US Soldiers look like heroes when many were is not bad... it is good business. I, personally, want to watch the Americans win. There are many pro-British aspects to war movies as well. The Bridge on the River Kwai. Lawrence of Arabia. A Bridge Too Far. Hell, to stretch it, look at the coolest Cold War spy hero EVER... James Bond. All British.

    What about the Russian hero sniper movie about Vassili Zaitsev in Enemy at the Gates? They spent the most money ever in Europe to make a Russian the hero.

    Ever see The Eagle has Landed starring Michael Cane? Makes the Germans the intelligent heroic studs and the Americans bumbling idiots.

    The Americans did not commit genocide against the Native populations. Against a tribe here and there, yes. Against the population of the America's? Nope. War. Not genocide and Custer is being portrayed as a moron lately, not a hero.
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Now the actual factual part of WW2 is a whole different picture. Yes there were many American troops in Europe, but in sheer numbers there were more Russian, and the Brits also had almost 6 million under arms in WW2. And on the battlefield it was the Brits and Russians that were the unsung heroes of the war... take the breakout of Normandy. Movie after movie depicts the brave American GI being the key to breaking out Normandy and start the German retreat across western Europe. Now the reality is that it was actually the British that made it possible because they held a huge amount of German troops in check and defeated them at Caen. The American's basically met very little resistance once they got of the beaches... and yes here they got a lot of resistance. But no one talks much about the battle of Caen in the importance of D-Day and the break out of Normandy. It is the stories of the 101st Airborne, or the 82nd Airborne, or the stories from Omaha and Utah beaches that are used over and over, where as the British and Commonwealth landings on Junno and Sword and Gold are rarely talked about. And when talking about Omaha and Utah, it is rarely mentioned that much of the hardship on those beaches was due to American incompetence rather than planned German resistance. Once in a while it is mentioned in D-Day movies, but is quickly glossed over. Or look at the Mulberry harbors... ever heard of them? British invention, highly successful and key to the landings... the American's dismissed these harbors and the one they had was destroyed to American arrogance and incompetence (they basically did not follow the instructions... ). But without the British Mulberry harbors, then the invasion would have failed. Or the funny tanks that cleared mine fields, or the floating tanks.. all British inventions and yes the American's thought they were failures... because they lost a lot of troops in them.. and they never mention that the troops died because the tanks were released too far from shore... and yet today... the US armed forces use the very same designs in their tanks to clear mines or get tanks to shore.. ironic eh?
    I have read many accounts of how they were released too far from shore. It is accepted history that they would have been effective if they were deployed correctly. You are an America Hater, that's all.

    The American 3rd Army under Patton led the breakout of Normandy, BTW. And the reason the British were able to take Caen as they did is because the Americans faced extreme resistance and the British and Canadiens faced almost no resistence at the beach landings. You are completely wrong about resistance met as well. Utah beach, the soldiers faced so much resistance that it took them six days to acquire the objectives that they were supposed to get on the first day.

    There were 15 million... 15 MILLION people in the US Armed Services during WWII. They were spread out over the entire globe. The Russians? Just in Russia. Now say the Americans don't get involved. Britain collapses. All those German divisions redirected at Russia. Ouch. Japan redirects it's forces, not against America, but against Russia, perhaps? Bye bye Russia.

    And in the end we have the America hater spewing nonsense. American incompetence twice?
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by SanderO View Post
    Thank you Pete for the history lesson AND the perspective.

    All media.. so called news and infotainment and entertainment misrepresents reality... Welcome to the Truman show. This was the allegory of our times. It's hard to accept that we live in a world which we have very little understanding of and one which we feel we NEED to have a solid basis for reality. It seems real... it seems to make sense.. It DOES make sense... but it make sense as much as any fiction.

    It is so interesting now to observe people trying to make sense out of what they get from the media... 9-11... Newtown... any event. They BELIEVE they can get it right and see through the PR... catch the liars in all the tricks... assuming that everyone is an actor playing some role which was given to them.

    It's refreshing to read actual factual accounts occasionally.
    Perspective? Regarding American ANYTHING from PeteEU?
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    When a person is duly convicted of a crime against others...
    Stop right there.

    In order to use the words "duly convicted", you have to agree that those doing the convicting have the power to do so. In a democracy, that power rests on the consent of the governed...to an extent. The real power lies in the ability (and will) to project force.

    This "due process" argument relies on who has the force every bit as much as who you think should have it.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    The two are not mutually exclusive, in fact they are often exactly the same thing. Where the two might depart is when the intention of a film may not be to propagate propaganda, but it turns out that way because of ingrained cultural assumptions. Intention different, effect identical.

    Pete's right about British war movies of the Fifties and Sixties. A lot of them were pure propaganda i.e. intention plus effect e.g. The Dambusters, 633 Squadron. Some others were inadvertent propaganda created by in-built cultural assumptions, even when the intention of the movie might have been the opposite of propaganda e.g. Bridge on the River Kwai, Lawrence of Arabia.
    And so were John Wayne movies like the Green Berrets. In fact, he kinda flat out said it too.

    Nothing wrong with that, provided you don't make over-blown claims about historical veracity.
    Not sure I ever have...

    I would like to see that, not because I want to see the US military at its worst, but because it's a story that ought to be told, seeing the protagonists on both sides. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Hollywood to option it though. How about Oliver Stone?
    Having been there a couple of times I can't see much good a theatrical film would do that a documentary couldn't and wouldn't do better.

    Well, that's honest.

    But not you?
    So I am honest one minute and not the very next? :lol"

    How you arrived at that snide and naive remark is almost stunning...

    And a classic.
    Clint is one of the best... I love it when Marty McFly tells the Mad Dog guy in the third Back to the Future that his name is Clint Eastwood and they laugh at him saying, "what kinda stupid name is that?"

    Wait... that one is based on fact though... right?
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    I appreciate all the good definitions.

    Actually, I DO allow for a non-physically harmful method of interrogation. Psychological trauma CAN be inflicted, and would certainly qualify as torture in my book, depending upon conditions. I try to keep things in perspective, and to some degree or another, situational ethics might very well apply.

    I am only human.

    When a person is duly convicted of a crime against others, as opposed to a crime against the state or a victimless crime, then he must be punished in accordance with the law and due process. I do not object to the death penalty, though the way we administer it leaves alot to be desired.

    Sleep deprivation is torture, and an example of your non-physical (not entirely accurate, but suffices for discussion) battery.
    And your enemies are probably just as conflicted as you.

    Maybe they were philosophizing about that very thing when they made their attacks on 9/11.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    And your enemies are probably just as conflicted as you.

    Maybe they were philosophizing about that very thing when they made their attacks on 9/11.
    What they are or aren't doesn't matter. This about us and not them. They have no power to defeat us or change us. We have to do that ourselves, and the fastest way to do that is to emulate them.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    So is that way they force prisoners to put their head down on a table and let some mullah cut it off with a blade?


    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    allow me to finish the sentence for you:
    It really is unfortunate that "advanced interrogation methods" actually work to motivate the opposition

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