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Thread: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

  1. #111
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    When the law said due process is based on results in inhumane acts against individuals, can that really be considered "right"? That was your contention, that "rightness" can't happen without either permission or due process. But when due process, dutifully carried out to the letter of the law on an egalitarian basis, results in inhumane treatment.... can that still be considered "right"?
    "Rights" are not the same as something being "right". It seems like that is what you are saying and I have no idea why...

    In essence it is different, but in practice it is the same. And even in intent it is the same - prison is used as a punitive action, every bit as much as a "corrective" action. We "punish" people by sending them to a place they don't want to go to, where they have no choice or freedom and very few rights.
    As it should be...

    Yet, you and the rest of polite society condone this.
    And why not?

    But it is interesting that you condone punishment for wrong-doing. Who decides what is considered "wrong-doing"? And who decides what a "just" punishment is? You? Me? Us, collectively? You condone punishment, which means you condone coercion of force on another person (that is, an act done to them against their will). Can this not leave psychological scars? And if it does... how different is it than torture? Further, if we can justify the means with the ends and decide that sending people to prison (unwilling confinement, reduced liberty, huge potential for rape and other assaults), then why should we draw a seemingly arbitrary line at what you consider "torture"? If the ends justify the means, and it does work to extract information, then why is it considered over the line when something like prison isn't?
    You make a compelling argument that most parents torture...
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  2. #112
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    U-571 - has the US capturing the first Enigma machine from a U-boat in 1944, when actually that would have been HMS Bulldog's 1941 capture of 2 machines from a German spy ship.
    The US Navy captured one in 1944

    Pearl Harbour - everyone knows this, don't they? Virtually nothing was historically accurate.
    The Japanese attacked the Americans at Pearl Harbor.
    Ships were hit including the USS Arizona.
    A Couple of fighters got off the ground
    The Doolittle Raid that used B-25s
    Etc.

    Saving Private Ryan - in which the US liberated France single-handedly.
    This was not suggested nor implied once anywhere in the film.
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  3. #113
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    The US Navy captured one in 1944
    Yes, just not the one that allowed the Allies to crack the code; that happened 3 years earlier.



    The Japanese attacked the Americans at Pearl Harbor.
    Ships were hit including the USS Arizona.
    A Couple of fighters got off the ground
    The Doolittle Raid that used B-25s
    Etc.
    Well, it's unlikely they'd go the whole hog and suggest it was a US victory.


    This was not suggested nor implied once anywhere in the film.
    It was not explicitly suggested, but it was heavily, heavily implied.
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  4. #114
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Yes, just not the one that allowed the Allies to crack the code; that happened 3 years earlier.
    The movie didn't imply that this was the only or first Enigma aquired as far as I can remember, and I just watched it two days ago.

    Well, it's unlikely they'd go the whole hog and suggest it was a US victory.
    From the crap movie that it was it sure looked like the US got it's ass handed to it pretty clearly...

    It was not explicitly suggested, but it was heavily, heavily implied.
    What? Seriously? Not once was it implied. They showed the experience of some US soldiers on the beach of Omaha (which was a US beach so you aren't going to see anything but Americans) and then a US operation to save a US soldier who hooked up with a US outfit... the language never implied anything about anything and if you are taking the conversation between Sam Malone and Hanks to say that it is the US capturing St Lo to Cherbourg to whatever to Paris to Berlin then that is being taken out of context. That was the Allied strategy... not a US one.

    I am sincerely shocked. I actually can't believe that a couple of you would even begin to come to such a conclusion.
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  5. #115
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    The movie didn't imply that this was the only or first Enigma aquired as far as I can remember, and I just watched it two days ago.
    In how many scenes is it emphasised how important this incident is in allowing the Allies to decode the enemy's communications. In truth it was not.



    From the crap movie that it was it sure looked like the US got it's ass handed to it pretty clearly...
    You miss the point. It's not that it claimed otherwise, it's that the factual details are a hotch-potch of half-truths and inventions. Bigelow isn't being criticised for claiming that Bin Laden wasn't killed, but of the factual details about how the intel was gathered.


    What? Seriously? Not once was it implied. They showed the experience of some US soldiers on the beach of Omaha (which was a US beach so you aren't going to see anything but Americans) and then a US operation to save a US soldier who hooked up with a US outfit... the language never implied anything about anything and if you are taking the conversation between Sam Malone and Hanks to say that it is the US capturing St Lo to Cherbourg to whatever to Paris to Berlin then that is being taken out of context. That was the Allied strategy... not a US one.

    I am sincerely shocked. I actually can't believe that a couple of you would even begin to come to such a conclusion.
    It's not just a couple of posters on DP. You'll find many commentators and reviewers thought so too...

    But whether or not this is an honest account of World War Two is some-thing the glowing American reviews have ignored. And although the combat realism and period authenticity can't be questioned, other things will stick in the throats of non-American audiences.

    Take the no-show of any Allies. While this is forgivable for Omaha Beach (a uniquely American cock-up), it's harder to explain as Captain Miller's eight-man unit move inland. Where are the British, the French, the Polish or the Canadians?

    Total Film magazine
    He has already revised World War II history with his American flag-waving epics Saving Private Ryan and Band of Brothers.

    But now Steven Spielberg is set to further antagonise the British military, and the SAS Regiment in particular, with his latest cinematic offering.

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    Hollywood revising history shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    [emphasis added by bubba]

    gotta say bull ****
    i have been on these boards for a number of years
    cross swords with will more often than i agree with him
    but in all that time he has always been straight up
    one of the few who offers facts to back up his positions

    you on the other hand, not so much
    if there is any debate about one's credibility, you are certain to lose that argument
    I am glad you get on well with Will. I also acknowledge your feelings as it concerns my credibility. I am sure you have a very good reason for feeling that way. After doing a little homework, I have discovered the only time you may possibly feel I am credible is when I am addressing Navy Pride. While some may see that as selective, I see it as you defending a friend . . . and that's a good thing. Nicely done.
    Last edited by Davo The Mavo; 12-22-12 at 07:19 PM.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    In how many scenes is it emphasised how important this incident is in allowing the Allies to decode the enemy's communications. In truth it was not.
    I don't recall that but I do recall them saying over and over that the Germans should never find out that they stole the Enigma because they would change the code as a result. Big difference.

    You miss the point. It's not that it claimed otherwise, it's that the factual details are a hotch-potch of half-truths and inventions. Bigelow isn't being criticised for claiming that Bin Laden wasn't killed, but of the factual details about how the intel was gathered.
    Is this film a documentary?

    It's not just a couple of posters on DP. You'll find many commentators and reviewers thought so too...
    I am a pretty smart guy... majored in History with a focus on WWII, not that it is important, and those guys and anybody else that has the stance being portrayed are just flat out wrong.

    Hollywood revising history shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.
    They are movies to entertain... it is not a conspiracy.
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  8. #118
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    I don't recall that but I do recall them saying over and over that the Germans should never find out that they stole the Enigma because they would change the code as a result. Big difference.



    Is this film a documentary?



    I am a pretty smart guy... majored in History with a focus on WWII, not that it is important, and those guys and anybody else that has the stance being portrayed are just flat out wrong.



    They are movies to entertain... it is not a conspiracy.
    Again, you're missing the point. I was responding to this comment by Maggie:

    A film that purports to be historically accurate should be called when it's not
    I was pointing out that all historical movies get their history wrong. I've got no problem with that and I don't believe any feature film-maker would claim their movies are 100% accurate. They all, ALL engage in poetic licence. I just pointed out some glaring examples.
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  9. #119
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Again, you're missing the point. I was responding to this comment by Maggie:
    Ahhh... I was REALLY missing the point then... OK.

    I was pointing out that all historical movies get their history wrong. I've got no problem with that and I don't believe any feature film-maker would claim their movies are 100% accurate. They all, ALL engage in poetic licence. I just pointed out some glaring examples.



    I'll just shut up now.
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Ahhh... I was REALLY missing the point then... OK.






    I'll just shut up now.
    No probs. And, btw, I really like Saving Private Ryan.U-571 not so much, and Pearl Harbour and Braveheart sucked rhinos' gonads.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

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