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Thread: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Yeah . . . well . . . if you say so. Stalk you? Man . . . you really love to make stuff up. I occasionally run into one of your posts that are full of crap . . . I comment on your dishonesty and I move on. Stalk you? Seriously dude . . . you really are a narcissist. Impressed with yourself much? Oh well, I know . . . and you know I know . . . that is reward enough. I will now leave you to selectively address other people with your sentence chopping method of communication.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by DiavoTheMiavo View Post
    Yeah . . . well . . . if you say so. Stalk you? Man . . . you really love to make stuff up. I occasionally run into one of your posts that are full of crap . . . I comment on your dishonesty and I move on. Stalk you? Seriously dude . . . you really are a narcissist. Impressed with yourself much? Oh well, I know . . . and you know I know . . . that is reward enough. I will now leave you to selectively address other people with your sentence chopping method of communication.
    [emphasis added by bubba]

    gotta say bull ****
    i have been on these boards for a number of years
    cross swords with will more often than i agree with him
    but in all that time he has always been straight up
    one of the few who offers facts to back up his positions

    you on the other hand, not so much
    if there is any debate about one's credibility, you are certain to lose that argument
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It s just because of the process, the egalitarian ethical and moral process. If the process becomes soiled, say by corruption, it becomes unjust ( even in our system). So it cannot be compared to torturing. Ones an apple and the other s a tree frog.
    When the process places a person in confinement as a possible outcome of the process, and this confinement is known for brutal gang warfare, rape, and murder... is not that process condoning torturous outcomes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    there is only one definition of Due Process... if you don't know it you shouldn't be debating.
    When the law said due process is based on results in inhumane acts against individuals, can that really be considered "right"? That was your contention, that "rightness" can't happen without either permission or due process. But when due process, dutifully carried out to the letter of the law on an egalitarian basis, results in inhumane treatment.... can that still be considered "right"?
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    When the process places a person in confinement as a possible outcome of the process, and this confinement is known for brutal gang warfare, rape, and murder... is not that process condoning torturous outcomes?



    When the law said due process is based on results in inhumane acts against individuals, can that really be considered "right"? That was your contention, that "rightness" can't happen without either permission or due process. But when due process, dutifully carried out to the letter of the law on an egalitarian basis, results in inhumane treatment.... can that still be considered "right"?
    Then we should be against rape and murder in prison. But, it is still a different animal.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It s just because of the process, the egalitarian ethical and moral process. If the process becomes soiled, say by corruption, it becomes unjust ( even in our system). So it cannot be compared to torturing. Ones an apple and the other s a tree frog.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Then we should be against rape and murder in prison. But, it is still a different animal.
    In essence it is different, but in practice it is the same. And even in intent it is the same - prison is used as a punitive action, every bit as much as a "corrective" action. We "punish" people by sending them to a place they don't want to go to, where they have no choice or freedom and very few rights.

    Yet, you and the rest of polite society condone this.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    In essence it is different, but in practice it is the same. And even in intent it is the same - prison is used as a punitive action, every bit as much as a "corrective" action. We "punish" people by sending them to a place they don't want to go to, where they have no choice or freedom and very few rights.

    Yet, you and the rest of polite society condone this.
    Are you dying torture is for punishment? And, yes I condone punishment for wring doing. People actually need this, though method matters.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Are you dying torture is for punishment? And, yes I condone punishment for wring doing. People actually need this, though method matters.
    What about those wrongly convicted?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    What about those wrongly convicted?
    They at least had due process, the right to a defense, appeal, and ever release later if new information is found. Quite different than torture.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Are you dying torture is for punishment? And, yes I condone punishment for wring doing. People actually need this, though method matters.
    I am making no such claim. I was stating that the intent is the same - cause harm to achieve a desired result. You, however, made the claim that our justice system is just based on the following criteria: "It s just because of the process, the egalitarian ethical and moral process. If the process becomes soiled, say by corruption, it becomes unjust ( even in our system). So it cannot be compared to torturing." But I showed that there is very little ethical or moral difference in the outcome of our justice system and torture. The only difference that remains is the egalitarian aspect which, in our particular system, tends to favor the wealthy anyway, so we can probably throw that out as well.

    I believe I've made a fair apples-to-apples comparison.

    But it is interesting that you condone punishment for wrong-doing. Who decides what is considered "wrong-doing"? And who decides what a "just" punishment is? You? Me? Us, collectively? You condone punishment, which means you condone coercion of force on another person (that is, an act done to them against their will). Can this not leave psychological scars? And if it does... how different is it than torture? Further, if we can justify the means with the ends and decide that sending people to prison (unwilling confinement, reduced liberty, huge potential for rape and other assaults), then why should we draw a seemingly arbitrary line at what you consider "torture"? If the ends justify the means, and it does work to extract information, then why is it considered over the line when something like prison isn't?

    The common response to this line of inquiry is to say that torture turns the rest of the world against us. And to a point, you are correct: it makes it easy for propaganda to paint us in a negative light. But it is not a blanket-true statement, for if it were then every time a beheading happens in the middle east, the rest of the world should turn on them, right? Following that logic, we should already have an entire globe full of willing allies ready to jump into battle with us... but this is not the case, and wasn't the case before we got caught using, shall we say, unsavory methods.
    Last edited by Gonzo Rodeo; 12-22-12 at 02:04 AM.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    I am making no such claim. You, however, made the claim that our justice system is just based on the following criteria: "It s just because of the process, the egalitarian ethical and moral process. If the process becomes soiled, say by corruption, it becomes unjust ( even in our system). So it cannot be compared to torturing." But I showed that there is very little ethical or moral difference in the outcome of our justice system and torture. The only difference that remains is the egalitarian aspect which, in our particular system, tends to favor the wealthy anyway, so we can probably throw that out as well.

    I believe I've made a fair apples-to-apples comparison.

    But it is interesting that you condone punishment for wrong-doing. Who decides what is considered "wrong-doing"? And who decides what a "just" punishment is? You? Me? Us, collectively? You condone punishment, which means you condone coercion of force on another person (that is, an act done to them against their will). Can this not leave psychological scars? And if it does... how different is it than torture? Further, if we can justify the means with the ends and decide that sending people to prison (unwilling confinement, reduced liberty, huge potential for rape and other assaults), then why should we draw a seemingly arbitrary line at what you consider "torture"? If the ends justify the means, and it does work to extract information, then why is it considered over the line when something like prison isn't?

    The common response to this line of inquiry is to say that torture turns the rest of the world against us. And to a point, you are correct: it makes it easy for propaganda to paint us in a negative light. But it is not a blanket-true statement, for if it were then every time a beheading happens in the middle east, the rest of the world should turn on them, right? Following that logic, we should already have an entire globe full of willing allies ready to jump into battle with us... but this is not the case, and wasn't the case before we got caught using, shall we say, unsavory methods.
    You got my quote mostly right; however, I don't agree that you've shown quite what you think you have. People accused of crimes have due process. The have rights. They can appeal. A wrong can even be righted. When we take someone and motor true them, there is no due process, no trial, no conviction, no appeal, no rights. It isn't punishment nor rehabilitation. It is brutality, and often ineffective brutality. Guards who brutalize convicted prisoners in our system break he law and in turn can be punished. When prisoners do so o other prisoners, they too can and should be held accountable. The behavior is defended by the system or those who govern prisons, not openly. And good people can take legal action. None if that describes what we have done with torture. Even in the face of learning we tortured or allowed others to torture innocent people, we still have people defending the indefensible.

    No, I don't buy that there is any comparison to those convicted of crimes.

    I'll tell you this as well, something I learned from an old first Sargent that I think has proven true. We do those who torture an injustice. Solders have to home and live with what thy do. I was discussing this recently with a vet who told me he participated in such acts, and felt they were right. We discussed the effect on him. He listen, talked, and eventually admitted he didn't sleep well, and that his wife worried about him. We do them no favors, and there are more effective ways.

    Btw, I'd worry more about those who felt nothing while brutalizing another human being.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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