Clackamas man, armed, confronts mall shooter

dirtpoorchris said:

See... All you do is deflect and you give no concessions what so ever, at all. You rather shoot down the little things to avoid the big things. You are okay with civs being fish in a barrel. Most of us arent. Good thing majority rules. No matter how you hash it an invading force on a town would be met more resistance with armed civs than defenseless civs. The point isnt how. The point is IF. Just because you think America is invincible from attack doesnt make it so.

Our troops are bogged down across the world. And you want to declaw the average populace??? THIS truly sounds crazy and asinine.

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No, the point is, the situation you have created is one that would never occur. With current day technology, it is virtually impossible a large scale attack could sneak up on us from a rouge country. Now... If you had argued that maybe a small specialized group of insurgents could possibly make it thru our porous boarder and attack a town and temporarily terrorize it undetected, I could see that happening. However, that is again, would be temporary as our military or local police forces would easily take out a small terrorist faction. And more than likely, if our government was not able to see it coming, the town attacked would not be prepared for it either.

Thrilla said:

47% of Americans profess to owning a gun... many have guns, but won't admit it.


...and you think that "not enough" would willing to fight for their rights against an oppressive tyrannical government.


not sure why you constantly underestimate our civilian population... but it's unwise

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You believe that a ban on guns would be the definition of a oppressive tyrannical government? Might want to get that schizophrenia diagnosed and get some meds stat.

Capster78 said:

No, the point is, the situation you have created is one that would never occur. With current day technology, it is virtually impossible a large scale attack could sneak up on us from a rouge country. Now... If you had argued that maybe a small specialized group of insurgents could possibly make it thru our porous boarder and attack a town and temporarily terrorize it undetected, I could see that happening. However, that is again, would be temporary as our military or local police forces would easily take out a small terrorist faction. And more than likely, if our government was not able to see it coming, the town attacked would not be prepared for it either.

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Well hey! At least that is some sort of concession. Almost.

dirtpoorchris said:

Well hey! At least that is some sort of concession. Almost.

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That is probably the most realistic threat, but not one I believe legitimizes the private ownership of guns. If we are living in that kind of fear on a daily basis, then we should be at war with someone and not sitting around in our houses waiting to be attacked.

Boo Radley said:

I don't concede we're safer either way. Both sides try to use one hit instances to make a false point. Both sides use fallacious arguments and questionable statistics. Perhaps absolute safety isn't possible and in free society, we have to live with that.

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I like this... it's very true.

Capster78 said:

How many veterans would it take to shoot down an aircraft flying MAC 2 with a rifle? How many veterans would it take to take out a heavily armed tank? How many veterans are even fit enough for the task to begin with? Those who are, would be recalled into the military ranks anyway to fight any battle against an invading force.

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why the hell would anyone shoot at an aircraft with an airspeed of mach 2?.. just let it fly on by

you don't have to take out a tank to render it combat ineffective....and you are still thinking in terms of conventional warfare

all veterans are fit for one task or another..even if that means simply organizing... others, like myself ( i'm an old dude) can still walk the walk.

some vets would go back into uniform,surely... but unless I retain my rank, I won't go (Sgtmjr).. I'd rather serve in an unconventional militia capacity around old grizzled men than serve under kids who are younger than my boots.

Capster78 said:

That is probably the most realistic threat, but not one I believe legitimizes the private ownership of guns. If we are living in that kind of fear on a daily basis, then we should be at war with someone and not sitting around in our houses waiting to be attacked.

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Most people dont get grumpy unless poked. I dont fight unless a threat is within arm distance. I rather sit around and wait to be attacked instead of walking around looking for fights.

Im not a predator. But I sure as hell aint prey.

Capster78 said:

You believe that a ban on guns would be the definition of a oppressive tyrannical government? Might want to get that schizophrenia diagnosed and get some meds stat.

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uhh yeah.. I sure do believe it... because, well... umm.. it's absolutely true. ( unless you completely change the definitions of the words "oppressive" and "tyrannical")

if your medical knowledge is as extensive as your military knowledge.. i'm sooo not worried about my health.:lol:

Thrilla said:

uhh yeah.. I sure do believe it... because, well... umm.. it's absolutely true. ( unless you completely change the definitions of the words "oppressive" and "tyrannical")

if your medical knowledge is as extensive as your military knowledge.. i'm sooo not worried about my health.:lol:

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How is it true, the ban of guns does not necessarily mean the government is oppressing the people. Even gun owners agree, that owning a gun is not necessarily a right, it is a privilege that if abused, can be taken away from you. The right to bear arms is not the cornerstone of the constitution unless you are one that believes that the government is out to get you. If you are one of those kind of individuals, then nothing I could say would make a difference either way. I have been walking around without a gun for 30+ years and have yet had the government try to suppress my rights as an individual.

dirtpoorchris said:

Most people dont get grumpy unless poked. I dont fight unless a threat is within arm distance. I rather sit around and wait to be attacked instead of walking around looking for fights.

Im not a predator. But I sure as hell aint prey.

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Fair enough, but owning a gun makes you no less a pray than not owning one. Again, if the level of fear for you is great enough that you feel a gun is the answer to your security, then we need to be either going to war against someone, or putting more money into our police force. I really don't believe the threat is imminent enough that it requires you to own a gun. I have been living just fine without one for the last 35 years and I have also lived in some of the most crime ridden cities in the US.

Capster78 said:

How is it true, the ban of guns does not necessarily mean the government is oppressing the people. Even gun owners agree, that owning a gun is not necessarily a right, it is a privilege that if abused, can be taken away from you. The right to bear arms is not the cornerstone of the constitution unless you are one that believes that the government is out to get you. If you are one of those kind of individuals, then nothing I could say would make a difference either way. I have been walking around without a gun for 30+ years and have yet had the government try to suppress my rights as an individual.

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the right to keep and bear arm is an enumerated right of the people... if you cannot understand that violating that right, en masse, is oppressive and tyrannical, then I cannot help you... you are beyond my reach.

it is not a privilege, it is a right.... that's a pesky fact you will eventually have to wrap your head around dude.

I feel that the first amendment is the cornerstone of the Bill of rights, but that's just a personal opinion, not a fact.... I believe the 2nd gives all other rights teeth.
I'll continue to argue/fight for the rights of our citizens... and you can continue to fight against them

I don't care if you have firearms or not, it's irrelevant .. you have the freedom to choose to possess a firearm or not, it's none of my business if you exercise your rights or not.

Capster78 said:

Fair enough, but owning a gun makes you no less a pray than not owning one. Again, if the level of fear for you is great enough that you feel a gun is the answer to your security, then we need to be either going to war against someone, or putting more money into our police force. I really don't believe the threat is imminent enough that it requires you to own a gun. I have been living just fine without one for the last 35 years and I have also lived in some of the most crime ridden cities in the US.

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Some of us like to do stuff for ourselves. We dont want to be the next media sensation or youtube video. We dont want the cops to handle the problem AFTER the damage has been done. We want to be able to defend ourselves. It is this simple. I wish that there was no need for guns. That we could trust some crooked authority wouldn't supply a crimey with a gun. But right now the most common lethal weapon is a gun. I wouldn't want a sword in a gunfight. I wouldn't want a knife in a sword fight. I wouldnt want my fists in a knife fight. So long as free will exists humans will have to defend themselves or be open to the possibility of being subjected to someone else nefarious will.

It doesnt matter how much money you put into a police force. They will always be responding after the fact. After the video is recorded for youtube. Calling 911 doesnt actually save your life against a direct threat. It just makes it possible so that the person gets stopped after the fact.

I have also lived in some bad towns. Just because you haven't been assaulted doesn't mean others haven't.

I dont get why you consider comparable defense paranoid. Honestly I dont think ill ever get robbed or have to deal with someone threatening my life. BUT, juuuuust in case, if someone is trying to take my life with anything I rather have a gun.

Capster78 said:

Fair enough, but owning a gun makes you no less a pray than not owning one. Again, if the level of fear for you is great enough that you feel a gun is the answer to your security, then we need to be either going to war against someone, or putting more money into our police force. I really don't believe the threat is imminent enough that it requires you to own a gun. I have been living just fine without one for the last 35 years and I have also lived in some of the most crime ridden cities in the US.

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yeah, lots of people believe they are safe.... and they are..... right up until they aren't.

Capster78 said:

How is it true, the ban of guns does not necessarily mean the government is oppressing the people. Even gun owners agree, that owning a gun is not necessarily a right, it is a privilege that if abused, can be taken away from you. The right to bear arms is not the cornerstone of the constitution unless you are one that believes that the government is out to get you. If you are one of those kind of individuals, then nothing I could say would make a difference either way. I have been walking around without a gun for 30+ years and have yet had the government try to suppress my rights as an individual.

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You need some serious constitutional education. This is laughably false.

Capster78 said:

How is it true, the ban of guns does not necessarily mean the government is oppressing the people. Even gun owners agree, that owning a gun is not necessarily a right, it is a privilege that if abused, can be taken away from you. The right to bear arms is not the cornerstone of the constitution unless you are one that believes that the government is out to get you. If you are one of those kind of individuals, then nothing I could say would make a difference either way. I have been walking around without a gun for 30+ years and have yet had the government try to suppress my rights as an individual.

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Its a privilege??? No, we live in a republic. The government does not give us rights, they uphold them.

BMC COOLBEANS said:

Its a privilege??? No, we live in a republic. The government does not give us rights, they uphold them.

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So are you against them witholding the right to bear arms to convicted fellons?

Capster78 said:

So are you against them witholding the right to bear arms to convicted fellons?

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That's a different question and a dishonest one...

j-mac said:

Deterrence in action. An armed society is a safer society.

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All statistical analysis to the contrary.

This is called anecdotal evidence, when you embrace one example of an outcome as the norm.

We know this is not the norm.

And it's very disrespectful to be posing these types of gun hype threads while parents are burying their children. Try having some compassion and stop thinking about yourself in your own isolated situation.

Some gun owners seem more concerned with the prospect of more paperwork than feeling anything for victims of gun violence; just my observation.

1) The gun show exception needs to go away.

3) All internet sales of guns need to be banned. Deadly weapons should only be sold face-to-face by a federally lic. dealer.

3) The military MUST start reporting its mental health cases, domestic abusers, and dishonorable discharges to NICS.

4) AND, we must start prosecuting ALL people who lie on gun applications. 71,000 liars in the last few years and only 71 prosecutions. What the hell are we doing???

Mr. President, get out your pen and do something!! Write a directive to ATF to start major undercover operations on gun dealers who do not follow the rules.

Today, 6-yo Jessica is being laid to rest. May God watch over her.

If it ever happened that 10% of US citizens were armed you would not have any of these mall shooting type events. These little cowards are depending on the fact that everyone is unarmed and they are the bad ass killer with a gun. Knowing one out of ten in that crowd around you has a gun kinda ruins the shooters buzz. The power trip he wants to be on just isn't there.

mr4anarchy said:

All statistical analysis to the contrary.

This is called anecdotal evidence, when you embrace one example of an outcome as the norm.

We know this is not the norm.

And it's very disrespectful to be posing these types of gun hype threads while parents are burying their children. Try having some compassion and stop thinking about yourself in your own isolated situation.

Some gun owners seem more concerned with the prospect of more paperwork than feeling anything for victims of gun violence; just my observation.

1) The gun show exception needs to go away.

3) All internet sales of guns need to be banned. Deadly weapons should only be sold face-to-face by a federally lic. dealer.

3) The military MUST start reporting its mental health cases, domestic abusers, and dishonorable discharges to NICS.

4) AND, we must start prosecuting ALL people who lie on gun applications. 71,000 liars in the last few years and only 71 prosecutions. What the hell are we doing???

Mr. President, get out your pen and do something!! Write a directive to ATF to start major undercover operations on gun dealers who do not follow the rules.

Today, 6-yo Jessica is being laid to rest. May God watch over her.

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Your 4 is the only reasonable request for gun control I have seen so far. For me, personally, I have no problems with these. Although you cant chastise someone for "belligerence" after a tragedy then go on to promote your agenda right after you do that.

mr4anarchy said:

All statistical analysis to the contrary.

This is called anecdotal evidence, when you embrace one example of an outcome as the norm.

We know this is not the norm.

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Yeah? Why is that? If more law abiding citizens were allowed to carry, after training ofcourse, maybe this type of thing would be more the norm, and lives could be saved.

And it's very disrespectful to be posing these types of gun hype threads while parents are burying their children. Try having some compassion and stop thinking about yourself in your own isolated situation.

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Don't you lecture me pal. I was one of the few in this forum to say the exact same thing when liberal/progressives, and so called "Independents" coming online, and politihacks like the trash MSNBC puts on air not 5 minutes after this broke.

Some gun owners seem more concerned with the prospect of more paperwork than feeling anything for victims of gun violence; just my observation.

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That is so ignorantly wrong on your part. I don't believe that there is a single legal gun owner that didn't have their heart break when this happened. Your framing this from a partisan radical anti gun POV, and it is clear that your lean is disingenuous.

1) The gun show exception needs to go away.

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There is no such thing. People can sell to each other their own personal weapons, and long rifles, but dealers at gun shows must still adhere to the requirements of their licensing...If you are trying to portray that anything other than that happens, it is a lie.

2) All internet sales of guns need to be banned. Deadly weapons should only be sold face-to-face by a federally lic. dealer.

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I am not opposed to that. Unless there is a way to do the appropriate background check and still buy from the net.

3) The military MUST start reporting its mental health cases, domestic abusers, and dishonorable discharges to NICS.

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Why are you singling out military? Was this 20 year old kid military? I don't think so.

4) AND, we must start prosecuting ALL people who lie on gun applications. 71,000 liars in the last few years and only 71 prosecutions. What the hell are we doing???

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Well, there is a lot of grey area in that...If the misinformation is on purpose, and intentional, then hell yes, prosecute them. However, there are a lot of questions as to what is reportable, and what information is even shared between states.

Mr. President, get out your pen and do something!! Write a directive to ATF to start major undercover operations on gun dealers who do not follow the rules.

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The President is not a King, or a dictator, though your admonition here suggests that is what you would prefer. And although it seems as though we are in this country moving toward an administrative dictatorship, for the moment we are not...If you want a law, contact your rep.

Today, 6-yo Jessica is being laid to rest. May God watch over her.

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Agreed, God rest her soul.

2) All internet sales of guns need to be banned. Deadly weapons should only be sold face-to-face by a federally lic. dealer.



You do realize all guns sold through the internet must be sent to a someone with a federal firearms license (FFL) in your state of residence. After the gun has shipped to the dealer in you state your must still fill out a 4473 (background check) before you may take possession of the weapon. You cannot just simply buy the gun online and have it shipped to your home with no paper trail.

BMC COOLBEANS said:

2) All internet sales of guns need to be banned. Deadly weapons should only be sold face-to-face by a federally lic. dealer.



You do realize all guns sold through the internet must be sent to a someone with a federal firearms license (FFL) in your state of residence. After the gun has shipped to the dealer in you state your must still fill out a 4473 (background check) before you may take possession of the weapon. You cannot just simply buy the gun online and have it shipped to your home with no paper trail.

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I did not know this. I guess I now disagree with some of his proposals.

BMC COOLBEANS said:

2) All internet sales of guns need to be banned. Deadly weapons should only be sold face-to-face by a federally lic. dealer.



You do realize all guns sold through the internet must be sent to a someone with a federal firearms license (FFL) in your state of residence. After the gun has shipped to the dealer in you state your must still fill out a 4473 (background check) before you may take possession of the weapon. You cannot just simply buy the gun online and have it shipped to your home with no paper trail.

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No. He did not realize that. He was repeating a liberal talking point picked up in a lemming website. Brainwashed as per Holder's wishes ....

Nice post, btw.

sawyerloggingon said:

If it ever happened that 10% of US citizens were armed you would not have any of these mall shooting type events. These little cowards are depending on the fact that everyone is unarmed and they are the bad ass killer with a gun. Knowing one out of ten in that crowd around you has a gun kinda ruins the shooters buzz. The power trip he wants to be on just isn't there.

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Well, that is probably true. Haven't heard of a mass shooter taking on a gun club yet.

But on the other side of that coin is that there are some damn idiots who want to carry guns. It is like the local moron here who went into a Costco restroom to take a dump and ended up dropping his pistol on the floor causing it to fire a shot off. Fortunately nobody got hit. There are a number of stories of morons shooting their best friend because they ignored the basic rules of gunmanship.

I like the idea of this 22 year old man having a gun but not fond of the nervous Rambos waving that gun around. It is just like car drivers. Some are quite excellent and respectful and then you have the idiots.

I absolutely have no idea how you separate the idiots from intelligent people.