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26 reported killed in Newtown [W:72/89]

mac said:
The biggest issue here should be how the shooter got access to the children. He should have never been in the school to begin with. Taking away guns, or giving people more guns is less important than examining the breakdown in security.
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Oh really ? That should be the "biggest issue" ? If he is intent on killing folks, shooting out the glass next to the door, or in the door, is not a "breakdown in security".

Wow !! We have now solved the "biggest issue" !!!
 
Ahlevah said:
Well, until we find a way to address the moral decay that seems to be gripping a large segment of our populace, I don't think any law will prevent this sort of thing. If people bent on breaking the law can get drugs, they can get guns. But if we want to "do something" that might actually stop someone bent on committing an act like this, we can start by chucking the concept of "gun free zones" in which the only people with guns are the crazies and giving teachers and administrators the option to arm themselves after they've received thorough professional training. Even with cops coming in with guns blazing, by the time they arrive people will be dead. As long as schools are easy pickings, you can bet your sweet bippy they'll continue to get picked by people who are bent on making a statement before they check out.
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American mentality is mostly much different than the rest of the world. And please do not take it as a criticism because it's not. I will never in a million years understand the American love of the gun. Frankly, I think it has a lot to do with your history and I do accept that it's just the way it is. But I do want to say the following, and I hope you take it to heart. Compared to most other civilized countries in the world, death by gunshot is a statistic that Americans should not be proud of. And if you think it has to do with "moral decency," this has been going on for a very long time. Like you healthcare, please try not to make things more difficult than they should be.
 
Medusa said:
this carnage points to the importance of death penalty..



26 reported killed in Newtown, Conn., school shooting

NEWTOWN, Conn. -- A lone gunman killed 26 people at an elementary school here, including 18 children, in a terrifying early Friday morning shooting spree.

The Associated Press and local media reported the shooter, a 24-year-old male identified by CNN as Ryan Lanza, was also dead inside Sandy Hook Elementary School. A second person was in custody and undergoing questioning. At least three weapons were recovered at the scene, including a .223-caliber assault rifle and two semi-automatic handguns.

Mayor Mark Boughton said several victims had been taken to local hospitals.

Groups of students — some crying, some holding hands — were escorted from the school by teachers. Some witnesses reported of up to 100 shots. There were unconfirmed reports that the assailant, dressed in military style assault gear, shot most of the victims in a kindergarten classroom.
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I agree with you, and I can only feel sadness at the day a man with guns walks into a school and kills children.

In America the land of the free , the land of opportunity, this should never have happened..:peace
 
Middleground said:
American mentality is mostly much different than the rest of the world. And please do not take it as a criticism because it's not. I will never in a million years understand the American love of the gun. Frankly, I think it has a lot to do with your history and I do accept that it's just the way it is. But I do want to say the following, and I hope you take it to heart. Compared to most other civilized countries in the world, death by gunshot is a statistic that Americans should not be proud of. And if you think it has to do with "moral decency," this has been going on for a very long time. Like you healthcare, please try not to make things more difficult than they should be.
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This is a perverted misconception of our "American mentality" used by liberals or those opposed to guns. It's intent is to paint gun supporters in a negative light for the sole purpose of implementing stricter gun control laws. Propaganda, if you will. Guns are nothing but a tool, neither good or evil.

To put it clearly:

Americans LOVE Freedom, and USE guns to protect it.

-NOT-

Americans USE Freedom, to protect our LOVE of guns.
 
I've scanned the post of this thread.
The children lost , the teachers sacrifice, the parents and families who lost a love one
All should be taken in consideration as well as the law inforcement agencies who did and are doing their best.

However when gun control is mentioned it's the old anti-gun nuts , or from my cold dead hands or when people can't buy guns only crooks will have guns.
VIRGINIA TECH, COLLEGE students shot by a gunmen who bought guns at a pawn shop legally
Aurora Col. people shot in a theater by a gunmen with guns and ammunition bought.legally
Conn. an elementary school children shot by gunmen with guns from his house bought legally

I for one am not asking for the dismissal of the 2nd amendment or for society to give up their guns.
The right to bear arms is an American tradition, if I'm not mistaken responsibility and common sense should fit in there somewhere.

However I as a person could not buy plutonium why because society would not trust me with it.
I could not buy a tank and park it in my driveway, why, because society would not trust me with it.
In short I could not be responsible enough to keep plutonium nor responsible enough to keep a tank.

Perhaps these gun merchants should check more carefully who they are selling guns to?
Perhaps gun owners should be responsible to where their gun winds up?
For some are not responsible enough to own a gun without innocent people being killed.

If you sell guns you should be responsible for who buys it.

If you want to buy a gun you should be responsible for it.

If I let my 14 year old grandson drive my car and he crashes into a police car, who do you think they will question?

When I apply for my drivers license if I am drunk do you think I would get it?

My point is if you are old enough to buy a gun, you should at least have responsibility, at least be responsible enough to keep innocents out of harms way.:peace
 
Eighty Deuce said:
Oh really ? That should be the "biggest issue" ? If he is intent on killing folks, shooting out the glass next to the door, or in the door, is not a "breakdown in security".

Wow !! We have now solved the "biggest issue" !!!
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I work in a place that has secured entrances, including bullet resistant glass and armed police officers....and there are no young lives being protected there. There was some security at the school, but it failed. There was obviously an inadequate response to the breakdown in security. Taking guns away from the general public is not going to stop this senseless violence, so we should be looking at how to mitigate it, deter it, and respond to it in a manner which reduces the risk to the lives of the innocent.
 
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Middleground said:
Then, 2 minutes later:



So you condescendingly preach that the mere mention of gun control is a poor refection on the memory of these young children, yet 2 minutes later, you go on about how security is too lax and need to be addressed. :screwy

Talk about owning yourself. :doh
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I'm not making this a pro-gun or anti-gun issue. How did I own myself?

But I digress. This morning, one of the parents of one of the children that was brutally murdered by gunshot, through tears, talked about the need for Americans to take action and do something to prevent anther shooting tragedy. Are you prepared to call him a nut? Uncaring? Insincere?
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I'm not calling him a nut, no. If anyone has reason to be outraged it's those that lost their children. Not those afraid of losing their guns, though I'm certainly not calling for that.
 
CriticalThought said:
It was reported he broke into the school by smashing a window. It's kind of hard to protect children from someone willing to go that far unless you want to lock the kids up in a prison with bars over the windows and an electrified perimeter.
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Perhaps, but the entrance could be secured, "relatively" cheaply, enough to prevent that form of entry from being possible. I think that if this incident shows us anything it's that this could happen anywhere, and every school should be alert, protected, and ready to respond to someone bent on such a horrific act.
 
mac said:
I'm not making this a pro-gun or anti-gun issue. How did I own myself?



I'm not calling him a nut, no. If anyone has reason to be outraged it's those that lost their children. Not those afraid of losing their guns, though I'm certainly not calling for that.
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Instead of taking the high road and think of the children as you preached, you go on and talk about security being the problem. I can't believe I have to explain this.
 
mac said:
I work in a place that has secured entrances, including bullet resistant glass and armed police officers....and there are no young lives being protected there. There was some security at the school, but it failed. There was obviously an inadequate response to the breakdown in security. Taking guns away from the general public is not going to stop this senseless violence, so we should be looking at how to mitigate it, deter it, and respond to it in a manner which reduces the risk to the lives of the innocent.
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Read that post again , not taking guns away from the general public , just taking guns away from people who shouldn't have guns to begin with.
There are many responsible citizens in America that have guns, and they do not wind up at a crime scene of a homicide victim, but those that do ... WHY?
Example if a person just got out of a straight jacket from a mental institution should he or she have a gun???

As far as responding to a gun fired situation , how long does it take to pull a trigger on a gun?:peace
 
mac said:
I work in a place that has secured entrances, including bullet resistant glass and armed police officers....and there are no young lives being protected there. There was some security at the school, but it failed. There was obviously an inadequate response to the breakdown in security. Taking guns away from the general public is not going to stop this senseless violence, so we should be looking at how to mitigate it, deter it, and respond to it in a manner which reduces the risk to the lives of the innocent.
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Sorry not every body works or goes to school in such an envirorment.

"we should be looking at this or that mitigate,deter, respond."

How come everytime innocent people and kids get killed by somebody that just happens to get their hands on a gun through legal meathods, or buys a gun, it's the same song different tune.
Ask about gun control and how these nuts are getting guns it's the old deter, respond look into it.

Some nut either had easy access to a gun or a nut bought one legally.
Either case it is irresponsible and it caused innocent people lives.

Question; should guns only be owned by honest, responsible people yes or no?:peace
 
Middleground said:
Instead of taking the high road and think of the children as you preached, you go on and talk about security being the problem. I can't believe I have to explain this.
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I'm not preaching about anything, I simply posted the names of the victims, to which another poster has a problem with. Security is a problem, one more worthy of discussion, in my view, than gun control, for or against.
 
presluc said:
Sorry not every body works or goes to school in such an envirorment.
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Exactly, and that is an easy fix.

"we should be looking at this or that mitigate,deter, respond."

How come everytime innocent people and kids get killed by somebody that just happens to get their hands on a gun through legal meathods, or buys a gun, it's the same song different tune.
Ask about gun control and how these nuts are getting guns it's the old deter, respond look into it.

Some nut either had easy access to a gun or a nut bought one legally.
Either case it is irresponsible and it caused innocent people lives.
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You can't regulate away crazy. If not a gun, then a homemade bomb, a chainsaw, a kitchen knife.

Question; should guns only be owned by honest, responsible people yes or no?:peace
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If they were, less people would want them. They're not, so honest responsible people want to protect themselves. This incident is proof that the police (with guns) can not be everywhere or respond fast enough.
 
presluc said:
Read that post again , not taking guns away from the general public , just taking guns away from people who shouldn't have guns to begin with.
There are many responsible citizens in America that have guns, and they do not wind up at a crime scene of a homicide victim, but those that do ... WHY?
Example if a person just got out of a straight jacket from a mental institution should he or she have a gun???
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No, probably not, but how far into someone's privacy are you willing to go to keep them from their constitutional rights? In this case, you have to violate the right to privacy in order to bar the right to keep and bear arms.

As far as responding to a gun fired situation , how long does it take to pull a trigger on a gun?:peace
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Less time than it takes the police to respond. But you can install stronger doors, windows, and put in place an armed response team.
 
mac said:
Exactly, and that is an easy fix.



You can't regulate away crazy. If not a gun, then a homemade bomb, a chainsaw, a kitchen knife.



If they were, less people would want them. They're not, so honest responsible people want to protect themselves. This incident is proof that the police (with guns) can not be everywhere or respond fast enough.
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The NRA said "easy fix" after Columbine , Virginia tech, the little girl that got shot in Flint Aurura, and here we are????

If a crazy person has a bomb a knife and a sig and a glock and a 223 if you removed the 3 guns could you not concentrate more on the bomb and the knife .
A bomb can not be bought legally a knife you can either throw or get up close in which a chair good be a good weapon against a knife, not against a gun though..

I did not say honest responsible people should not be able to buy guns I said nuts should not be accessable to a gun nor be able to buy one

So you buy a gun to protect yourself from nuts buying guns?
Am I missing something here?:peace
 
mac said:
No, probably not, but how far into someone's privacy are you willing to go to keep them from their constitutional rights? In this case, you have to violate the right to privacy in order to bar the right to keep and bear arms.



Less time than it takes the police to respond. But you can install stronger doors, windows, and put in place an armed response team.
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Privacy???
What of the 26 people lieing dead in Conn.
Did they not have rights as well, THE RIGHT TO LIVE.

Why should America have to do that?
Just so the NRA can have another member , just so some nut that wants to buy a gun won't get his feelings hurt.
Who is the victims here people who don't want any gun control or the innocent victims that are the result of less gun control cause the real victims can't talk.:peace
 
I can think of three nearby incidents off the top of my head where someone used a gun to defend themselves--a domestic abuse situation involving a drunk husband with a history of violence who was actively beating her until she got her hands on a gun in a drawer; somebody who found an intruder who had broken into their child's room in the middle of the night while their child was there asleep; and a man who walked into a situation where a bunch of thugs, at least 1 with a gun, were breaking into his closed business and then came after him when he showed up by coincidence. In which of those situations would you have just let the bad guys have their way when there was no apparent escape from the situation possible?
 
presluc said:
Privacy???
What of the 26 people lieing dead in Conn.
Did they not have rights as well, THE RIGHT TO LIVE.
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It's not up to me, buddy. Protected rights are hard to get around.

Why should America have to do that?
Just so the NRA can have another member , just so some nut that wants to buy a gun won't get his feelings hurt.
Who is the victims here people who don't want any gun control or the innocent victims that are the result of less gun control cause the real victims can't talk.:peace
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The NRA didn't write the Constitution.
 
presluc said:
Privacy???
What of the 26 people lieing dead in Conn.
Did they not have rights as well, THE RIGHT TO LIVE.
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As I recall, a lot of people put certain rights to privacy/etc over the rights of little children to live, now. Roe v Wade.

Just sayin'.
 
Fisher said:
I can think of three nearby incidents off the top of my head where someone used a gun to defend themselves--a domestic abuse situation involving a drunk husband with a history of violence who was actively beating her until she got her hands on a gun in a drawer; somebody who found an intruder who had broken into their child's room in the middle of the night while their child was there asleep; and a man who walked into a situation where a bunch of thugs, at least 1 with a gun, were breaking into his closed business and then came after him when he showed up by coincidence. In which of those situations would you have just let the bad guys have their way when there was no apparent escape from the situation possible?
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All three of the situations you named showed responsible , honest people defending themselves AGAINST PEOPLE THAT WERE DOING WRONG
My response good for them

16 dead in Viginia tech who did nothing with gun legally bought
26 DEAD IN CONN who did nothing with access to guns legally bought
YOUR RESPONSE???:peace
 
presluc said:
All three of the situations you named showed responsible , honest people defending themselves AGAINST PEOPLE THAT WERE DOING WRONG
My response good for them

16 dead in Viginia tech who did nothing with gun legally bought
26 DEAD IN CONN who did nothing with access to guns legally bought
YOUR RESPONSE???:peace
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I'm all for denying gun ownership to those that have some legal indication that they are violent or a felon. Unfortunately with nut-jobs, there is no way of knowing they are a nut-job until they do something.
 
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mac said:
I'm all for denying gun ownership to those that have some legal indication that they are violent or a felon. Unfortunately with nut-jobs, there is no way of knowing they are a but-job until they do something.
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Really check on the background of the shooter of Virginia Tech.

Check out some gun shows in the south.

It would seem the people that sell guns have forgotten two words why and who.
Odd, the Secretary of State is very through at such words.:peace
 
presluc said:
Really check on the background of the shooter of Virginia Tech.
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Unless they've committed a crime, there's nothing to check.

Check out some gun shows in the south.

It would seem the people that sell guns have forgotten two words why and who.
Odd, the Secretary of State is very through at such words.:peace
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As far as I know, the same background check and waiting times are required at gun shows as they are at dealers.
 
presluc said:
All three of the situations you named showed responsible , honest people defending themselves AGAINST PEOPLE THAT WERE DOING WRONG
My response good for them

16 dead in Viginia tech who did nothing with gun legally bought
26 DEAD IN CONN who did nothing with access to guns legally bought
YOUR RESPONSE???:peace
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My response is that a woman may have been beaten to death, who knows what would have happened to that child had the father not come in with a gun, and a businessman would have likely been pistol-whipped and robbed if not killed had they not had access to their guns. Differentiating between good owners and bad owners cannot be done if there are no owners which is what the left seems to want. The answer is not in taking away the guns but in weeding out the nutjobs--the other common denominator in this and VT.
 
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