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Two Gunmen at Newtown, Conn., Elementary School Shooting, One Dead [W:449/490/584]

Gimmesometruth said:
Yes, thats the answer...INCREASE the availability of weapons....in areas where kids are!

BRILLIANT!!!
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Use some logic. That teacher may not be a master class shooter with years of training under their belt. But when the unthinkable happens and there is a crazed gunman in the classroom who is going to tie up your daughter, rape her and then shoot her in the back of the head, wouldn't you rather that teacher be equipped to at least try?
 
Hugh_Akston said:
Moderator's Warning:
Let's put an end to the baiting, flaming, trolling and personal attacks. If you want to debate gun control, there is a forum for that. Stick to the topic and cease with the attacks or else.
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What about the personal threats?
 
ric27 said:
Use some logic. That teacher may not be a master class shooter with years of training under their belt. But when the unthinkable happens and there is a crazed gunman in the classroom who is going to tie up your daughter, rape her and then shoot her in the back of the head, wouldn't you rather that teacher be equipped to at least try?
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No. He'd rather they all die like dogs.
He got his wish.
 
PirateMk1 said:
I am dismayed at how easy it is for someone to do these mass killings and few if any respond with a fight reflex. Why is it that people dont fight?
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Because we have been conditioning society not to fight back, for decades now. When my boys were in school, they were told not to fight back if someone threw the first punch, or they would get suspended just as the initiator would. I told them to always fight back, suspension or not. We have a generation of adults now, who never learned to defend themselves, because of this very thing.
 
Gimmesometruth said:
cough cough....


Increases in gun ownership lead to a higher gun-homicide rate and legislation allowing citizens to carry concealed weapons does not reduce crime, according to a recent NBER Working Paper by Mark Duggan. After peaking in 1993, gun homicides in the United States dropped 36 percent by 1998, while non-gun homicides declined only 18 percent. In that same period, the fraction of households with at least one gun fell from more than 42 percent to less than 35 percent. Duggan finds that about one-third of the gun-homicide decline since 1993 is explained by the fall in gun ownership. The largest declines occur in areas with the largest reductions in firearm ownership.
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concealed carry saves search


thats a pretty damn big list.
 
Evenstar said:
People are being programmed to be followers, minus critical thinking. It's tragic to think that the adults in this situation were so woefully unprepared. But who is to say any of us would have or could have acted differently. I am angered, but mostly still in shock. I'm still not sure how to process this news.
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Maam I KNOW EXCACTLY how would respond. I will say this, I have an adavtage if you can call it that by having had to deal with crisis situtations where people are activily trying to kill you and being dreadfully under armed for a number of years. I would think that schools would have had some sort of protocal for dealing with this type situation. This is NOT an unknown. So what happened to their protocals and why where they not implimented or effective?
 
All I feel right now is hate. I just can't understand how someone could look little kids in the face, and pull that trigger, over and over. And I hate.
 
lizzie said:
Because we have been conditioning society not to fight back, for decades now. When my boys were in school, they were told not to fight back if someone threw the first punch, or they would get suspended just as the initiator would. I told them to always fight back, suspension or not. We have a generation of adults now, who never learned to defend themselves, because of this very thing.
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I would take my brothers to the park and mock fight, spar with them. I would dominate them and then tell them how to beat the situation. People would stare at me like I was insane and they wanted to call the cops. Many, many challenging looks like, "hey why are you fighting that kid?!?!?" My brothers came to appreciate it and were scared of no one in school. But I also used to teach them to be humble.

Every dad/brother should take kids to the park and beat them up. /sarcasm I mean train them
 
PirateMk1 said:
I am going to ask a serious question here. Eight adults along with 20 of their very defenceless charges are dead. I know they didnt have a gun in the school to defend themselves. Did ANY official or teacher in that school MAKE ANY attempt to DEFEND their charges or themselves regardless of their lack of firearms. I learned a LONG time ago when I was much younger that when in death ground there is only one thing to do. FIGHT. HARD. Are people becoming sheep now? Do they not know to defend themselves when in mortal danger? I find it distubing to say the least the ADULTS did very little to defend their charges. Maybe people think I am nuts for brinnging this up, but when people are dying about you it might be a good time figure out how to foil your killers plans or at least put up a fight to maybe encourage them to find easier pickings, there things other than guns that can be improvised into a weopon. Maybe these things occured here. It doesnt seem like it though. I am dismayed at how easy it is for someone to do these mass killings and few if any respond with a fight reflex. Why is it that people dont fight?
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There have been multiple reports of adults who "fought back" in some way or another. The first two people killed ran into the hallway to see what was happening and address the situation - one of them, the principal, turned on the PA system to alert the rest of the school and was then killed. Another woman put herself in front of a door that didn't have a lock and was shot twice because of it. Another teacher pulled two students who were in the hallway with bullets going right by them into her room and locked the door. Another woman put students into a closet while the gunman was shouting "let me in". I think all of that counts as "fighting back" in some way.

Now, if your only definition of "fighting back" is going up to a guy with guns, a mask and bullet proof vest and trying to disarm him, then I'm not sure, but I don't know why the **** you would dismiss people in a freaking elementary school of all places as being ****ing "sheep" if they didn't. I don't get that mad at all the pro and anti gun nuts calling for their respective policy changes, but what PISSES ME OFF every single time one of these shootings happen is when people criticize or in some way denigrate the people who were being attacked. These people were in a damn elementary school and they probably did their best to protect their children and themselves in an unbelievably extraordinary circumstance and then people like you have the gall (when you clearly haven't even done much research) to insinuate that if they didn't react the way you think they should, then they are "sheep" or they weren't "defending their charges". Jesus ****ing Christ.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
I would take my brothers to the park and mock fight, spar with them. I would dominate them and then tell them how to beat the situation. People would stare at me like I was insane and they wanted to call the cops. Many, many challenging looks like, "hey why are you fighting that kid?!?!?" My brothers came to appreciate it and were scared of no one in school. But I also used to teach them to be humble.

Every dad/brother should take kids to the park and beat them up. /sarcasm I mean train them
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Imo, every child needs to know that he has the right, and (imo) the obligation to defend himself. I have no tolerance for bullying, but I have no intention of letting someone else handle it for me. I will eagerly defend myself and others from assholes. That is really the only thing that aggressors understand- meet force with equal or greater force.
 
lizzie said:
Because we have been conditioning society not to fight back, for decades now. When my boys were in school, they were told not to fight back if someone threw the first punch, or they would get suspended just as the initiator would. I told them to always fight back, suspension or not. We have a generation of adults now, who never learned to defend themselves, because of this very thing.
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I don't think that is accurate. Twenty of those who were killed today were around 6 years old and I really don't think they would be much of a threat again a high powered rifle. The other 6 victims were adults most likely females who were probably shot first before they could readily react. I would imagine most would first attempt to cover for a child.

As for a generation of wimps I say BS. Who do you think is oveseas now wearing the uniform of the US? wimps? Yes, you are disciplined for fighitng in school as it has always been. But go on a sports field now and see the wimps you are talking about. No, I don't think there is anything wrong with this new generation of adults.
 
lizzie said:
Because we have been conditioning society not to fight back, for decades now. When my boys were in school, they were told not to fight back if someone threw the first punch, or they would get suspended just as the initiator would. I told them to always fight back, suspension or not. We have a generation of adults now, who never learned to defend themselves, because of this very thing.
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true enough, when I was a grade school kid I wasn't very big. and I got picked on a few times. so one day when I came home from school with a black eye my mom said to my father-should I call the school and complain My dad said no, I will take care of this and by that he meant (he had been the navy boxing champion) teaching me how to really fight. and he did. and that took care of the problems. all it took was a couple busted noses of bullies and no one hassled me again until I was going into my senior year of high school where a graduating senior =the class asshole-picked a fight with me. by then I not only knew how to box, I had been studying TKD for years. and that fight lasted all of the 8 seconds it took to break the guy's jaw with a snap kick and take out a few ribs. and the only flak I got from the college counselor-upper school chairman was that some of my form was a bit sloppy. no one got in trouble, no one got suspended, street justice was considered legit as long as the bully got his ass kicked
 
PirateMk1 said:
I am going to ask a serious question here. Eight adults along with 20 of their very defenceless charges are dead. I know they didnt have a gun in the school to defend themselves. Did ANY official or teacher in that school MAKE ANY attempt to DEFEND their charges or themselves regardless of their lack of firearms. I learned a LONG time ago when I was much younger that when in death ground there is only one thing to do. FIGHT. HARD. Are people becoming sheep now? Do they not know to defend themselves when in mortal danger? I find it distubing to say the least the ADULTS did very little to defend their charges. Maybe people think I am nuts for brinnging this up, but when people are dying about you it might be a good time figure out how to foil your killers plans or at least put up a fight to maybe encourage them to find easier pickings, there things other than guns that can be improvised into a weopon. Maybe these things occured here. It doesnt seem like it though. I am dismayed at how easy it is for someone to do these mass killings and few if any respond with a fight reflex. Why is it that people dont fight?
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From what I gather from listening to the online broadcast today, certain teachers and staff did what they could...or what they thought was important. I don't fault any of them.

1. It appears the Principal died while fighting the guy.
2. Someone...presumably the Principal...activated the intercom which alerted the school that a crisis was in progress. That probably saved a number of lives.
3. The rest of the teachers and staff were more concerned with protecting the children in their charge.
4. When the gunman went into the first classroom, the first person he killed was the teacher. After that, he killed the children. A six year old boy in that classroom reported this...after he grabbed a couple of kids, ran past the gunman and escaped.

Now...it's not out of the realm of plausible possibility that, if the office staff had been armed and trained, this tragedy could have been severely reduced or even averted.
 
Crosscheck said:
I don't think that is accurate. Twenty of those who were killed today were around 6 years old and I really don't think they would be much of a threat again a high powered rifle. The other 6 victims were adults most likely females who were probably shot first before they could readily react. I would imagine most would first attempt to cover for a child.

As for a generation of wimps I say BS. Who do you think is oveseas now wearing the uniform of the US? wimps? Yes, you are disciplined for fighitng in school as it has always been. But go on a sports field now and see the wimps you are talking about. No, I don't think there is anything wrong with this new generation of adults.
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The initial question that the bolded is a response to, was about the preparedness of the adults. Reading is your friend. As for whether or not you agree with me, there is no doubt that our society is being conditioned not to react to violence with violence in return, and unfortunately, it's creating victims.
 
I find it interesting how Colorado Joker, KC Chiefs player, Portland Mall shooter and today's Connecticut elementary shooter all fall into the small age range of 20-25.
 
lizzie said:
The initial question that the bolded is a response to, was about the preparedness of the adults. Reading is your friend. As for whether or not you agree with me, there is no doubt that our society is being conditioned not to react to violence with violence in return, and unfortunately, it's creating victims.
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I don't buy that. Do you have evidence to support that.
 
lizzie said:
Because we have been conditioning society not to fight back, for decades now. When my boys were in school, they were told not to fight back if someone threw the first punch, or they would get suspended just as the initiator would. I told them to always fight back, suspension or not. We have a generation of adults now, who never learned to defend themselves, because of this very thing.
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And just how would it be possible for these children to have fought back?
 
Mathematician said:
I find it interesting how Colorado Joker, KC Chiefs player, Portland Mall shooter and today's Connecticut elementary shooter all fall into the small age range of 20-25.
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Based on something I heard on CNN today, it is not unusual for people with serious mental issues to go off the psychotic deep end in their early 20's.
 
lizzie said:
Because we have been conditioning society not to fight back, for decades now. When my boys were in school, they were told not to fight back if someone threw the first punch, or they would get suspended just as the initiator would. I told them to always fight back, suspension or not. We have a generation of adults now, who never learned to defend themselves, because of this very thing.
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What I thought. Thats the same reason 9/11 happened. No one stood up. We can blame the terrorists all we want. We can blame the gunman all we want. We can blame guns all we want. But the truth of the matter is, a large chunk of our society lost their will to stand up in the face of danger and make stands despite their fear. Thats THE fundemental difference between those who want to be able to defend themselves and those who wish to take that away. Wishing and praying and hopeing dont make the evil at your door go away, it is emboldened by fear and thoughtlessness. I used to say to my people before went on mission, "Keep your head and you keep your head. Lose your head and johny jihad gets a nice trophy." Its a crude saying but it still conves the point the allowing fear ,which is good and nessary emotion, to overwhelm and dominate us will in the end be our end. We must overcome it to have higher chances of survival in these type situtations.
 
Boo Radley said:
I don't buy that. Do you have evidence to support that.
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There is no evidence. It's the same 'ol crap of "this world is going to hell in a handbasket" people like to throw out there because utlimately it makes them feel better about themselves and their generation. Everything was always better when they were a kid. Every generation says the same thing about the upcoming generation.
 
PirateMk1 said:
What I thought. Thats the same reason 9/11 happened. No one stood up. We can blame the terrorists all we want. We can blame the gunman all we want. We can blame guns all we want. But the truth of the matter is, a large chunk of our society lost their will to stand up in the face of danger and make stands despite their fear. Thats THE fundemental difference between those who want to be able to defend themselves and those who wish to take that away. Wishing and praying and hopeing dont make the evil at your door go away, it is emboldened by fear and thoughtlessness. I used to say to my people before went on mission, "Keep your head and you keep your head. Lose your head and johny jihad gets a nice trophy." Its a crude saying but it still conves the point the allowing fear ,which is good and nessary emotion, to overwhelm and dominate us will in the end be our end. We must overcome it to have higher chances of survival in these type situtations.
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So, the reason Connecticut happened was peoples unwillingness to defend themselves?

You know we're talking about guns and children, right?
 
PirateMk1 said:
What I thought. Thats the same reason 9/11 happened. No one stood up. We can blame the terrorists all we want. We can blame the gunman all we want. We can blame guns all we want. But the truth of the matter is, a large chunk of our society lost their will to stand up in the face of danger and make stands despite their fear.
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I can't take this ****. Your posts sicken me.
 
wolfman24 said:
More of the same. When will they get it through their heads. Oh right delusion so never.
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Last time I checked, both Chicago and DC are liberal cities with very strong gun restriction laws. Where do they rank on the highest rates of gun violence in the country again?
 
TurtleDude said:
true enough, when I was a grade school kid I wasn't very big. and I got picked on a few times. so one day when I came home from school with a black eye my mom said to my father-should I call the school and complain My dad said no, I will take care of this and by that he meant (he had been the navy boxing champion) teaching me how to really fight. and he did. and that took care of the problems. all it took was a couple busted noses of bullies and no one hassled me again until I was going into my senior year of high school where a graduating senior =the class asshole-picked a fight with me. by then I not only knew how to box, I had been studying TKD for years. and that fight lasted all of the 8 seconds it took to break the guy's jaw with a snap kick and take out a few ribs. and the only flak I got from the college counselor-upper school chairman was that some of my form was a bit sloppy. no one got in trouble, no one got suspended, street justice was considered legit as long as the bully got his ass kicked
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I'm ****ing jealous
 
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