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Two Gunmen at Newtown, Conn., Elementary School Shooting, One Dead [W:449/490/584]

All folks with Antisocial Personality Disorder showed signs of Conduct Disorder in their younger years, you're right. But nowhere near all kids with Conduct Disorder turn into 'sociopaths.'

And THAT'S what makes it so damned difficult.
 
I prayed in vain that this wouldn't turn into a gun rights vs. gun control fiasco.

There is a small contingent of violent psychopaths out there that are now bent on "breaking the record". I believe this wholeheartedly. I'm not saying that it is anything conspiratorial or organized, either. I'm just saying that, starting with the Columbine tragedy, the truly psychotic out there seem to be focused on numbers. Sickening.

God this is awful. I'm going to go now and pick up my 5 year old daughter from preschool and give her the biggest hug I ever have given.
 
And THAT'S what makes it so damned difficult.

It's also possible though that some other mental disorder (not Antisocial Personality) was a contributing factor in the act, such as Schizophrenia/Schizoaffective Disorder or Bipolar type.
 
Or, perhaps, we need to evolve our culture into one which believes no one needs to own a firearm at all other than police and military people.

That is exactly the type of society I do NOT want to live in.
 
There has to be a middle ground between allowing open access to guns for everyone and banning all guns outright. Both are extremes and unnecessary, but there has to be something there in the middle where we can say "okay we've come up with a system where responsible people can have guns, but irresponsible people cannot."

As Lutherf said above, personal responsibility needs to be encouraged. I think responsible gun ownership is something that takes a backseat to simply allowing access to guns and that's sort of the main problem.

There is a middle ground and although gun laws are different in different states I think we have more or less found that middle ground.

One thing we can't forget is that we can't legislate responsibility into existence. The best we can do is legislate the consequences for being irresponsible and that means that from time to time we will have unsavory situations to deal with.
 
This is a terrible tragedy. I didn't hear the news until later in the afternoon, when the death toll and what had happened was pretty much known, and it all rolled over me like a tidal wave. I felt like someone had gut-punched me, I'm sure I turned pale and looked shocked. It is just inconcievable to me that someone could get so wrong in the head (or heart) as to murder a classroom full of little children. Horrendous, inconcievable, evil act.

As a parent it just tore a hole in me... I could so easily imagine myself in the place of the parents who lost a child today, and the utter horror and emptiness they must feel, the terrible way that the question "WHY?" must echo through their souls.

My heart goes out to them, and also my prayers.

Now we have those who are capitalizing on this tragedy to push their agenda, or who are reacting on emotion to call for instant action of some sort, typically gun control, without taking the time to allow emotions to cool and reason to prevail. To those let me say this: in the heat and heartbreak of such a tragedy is NO TIME to try to set public policy.

Wild emotion and heated reactions have no place in legislation.

We have as of yet far too little information to make judgements and decisions that will turn into legislative policy. We have no idea if any form of gun control would have changed the outcome of this tragedy. The odds are it would not have, since guns are readily available on the black market for those who cannot buy legally.

Many other things have a much better chance of actually CHANGING the outcome of such an event... better school security for starters: I have many questions about how he got in armed and why he was not stopped by an armed school resource officer, questions I as yet have no answers for. In the longer term, changing the way we handle mental illness in this country is very important... HOW did someone get this messed up in the head without someone realizing it and taking steps to intervene?

But even so, as I said, this is the wrong time for proposing policy or legislation. It will be days or weeks (or longer) before we have enough information to form an accurate picture of how and why this happened, and what could be done that would ACTUALLY help prevent such things, rather than JUST being feel-good actions that won't really change the situation.

Now is the time to grieve and pray; the time to hug your children and give thanks that they are safe and well; the time to reflect on the preciousness and fragility of life, and to think on those who have lost loved ones today.

Please, don't turn this tragedy into a political football with the blood not even dry and facts few and far between.
Holy **** dude. Trying not to tear up. Thank you for your reason. I gotta log out from all this.
 
I get it, the feeling of hopelessness and helplessness is almost overwhelming but the reality of the situation is we're a country of over 300 million and all it takes is one lunatic with a couple of guns to cause a mass tragedy like this and new gun laws won't do anything except get guns out of the hands of law abiding people.

I just heard that the school was upgraded with a security system that locks people out and gives the people inside the ability to buzz individuals in.

It was insufficient.

Every class room door should be locked remotely immediately upon shots fired or a locked down scenario and those doors should be bullet proof steel doors. It would isolate the kids and most teachers.
This story got me upset, so when that happens I kinda shoot from the hip when I say things.

My intention is not to say that we punish those who weren't responsible. In fact, it's probably more important than ever that responsible gun owners speak out and represent themselves more strongly, because crazy folks like Adam Lanza give them a bad name. To me, it often seems like gun culture and violence culture in general dominate responsible gun ownership.

Maybe we can create laws that do, in effect, encourage responsibility, like better background checks and stuff like that. I dunno, we'd have to discuss it more as a society, it's not exactly a simple fix.
 
One thing we can't forget is that we can't legislate responsibility into existence. The best we can do is legislate the consequences for being irresponsible and that means that from time to time we will have unsavory situations to deal with.
Yeah, I guess that's what I meant.
 
This story got me upset, so when that happens I kinda shoot from the hip when I say things.

My intention is not to say that we punish those who weren't responsible. In fact, it's probably more important than ever that responsible gun owners speak out and represent themselves more strongly, because crazy folks like Adam Lanza give them a bad name. To me, it often seems like gun culture and violence culture in general dominate responsible gun ownership.

Maybe we can create laws that do, in effect, encourage responsibility, like better background checks and stuff like that. I dunno, we'd have to discuss it more as a society, it's not exactly a simple fix.


One thing that virtually all these mass murders have in common is that they are mentally ill.

We really need to address that as a nation. In the 80's mental institutions were de-funded and many closed, and in many cases this put people on the street who REALLY needed to be institutionalized. In the years since (and I know this as a cop) it is hard to get someone committed to an institution even IF there is reason to believe they may be dangerous.

In the longer term, addressing our national blind-eye towards mental illness might go a long way towards reducing the frequency of such incidents... perhaps more so than any other action we might take.
 
I don't know if YS will call you crass, but I certainly will.

If either of my sons die, I will cry just as much as their mother will.

Of course... that would be normal and expected.



However, I don't know ANYONE in Connecticut and I find it hard to cry for people I don't know enduring tragedy I didn't see first hand.
 
This is a terrible tragedy. I didn't hear the news until later in the afternoon, when the death toll and what had happened was pretty much known, and it all rolled over me like a tidal wave. I felt like someone had gut-punched me, I'm sure I turned pale and looked shocked. It is just inconcievable to me that someone could get so wrong in the head (or heart) as to murder a classroom full of little children. Horrendous, inconcievable, evil act.

As a parent it just tore a hole in me... I could so easily imagine myself in the place of the parents who lost a child today, and the utter horror and emptiness they must feel, the terrible way that the question "WHY?" must echo through their souls.

My heart goes out to them, and also my prayers.

Now we have those who are capitalizing on this tragedy to push their agenda, or who are reacting on emotion to call for instant action of some sort, typically gun control, without taking the time to allow emotions to cool and reason to prevail. To those let me say this: in the heat and heartbreak of such a tragedy is NO TIME to try to set public policy.

Wild emotion and heated reactions have no place in legislation.

We have as of yet far too little information to make judgements and decisions that will turn into legislative policy. We have no idea if any form of gun control would have changed the outcome of this tragedy. The odds are it would not have, since guns are readily available on the black market for those who cannot buy legally.

Many other things have a much better chance of actually CHANGING the outcome of such an event... better school security for starters: I have many questions about how he got in armed and why he was not stopped by an armed school resource officer, questions I as yet have no answers for. In the longer term, changing the way we handle mental illness in this country is very important... HOW did someone get this messed up in the head without someone realizing it and taking steps to intervene?

But even so, as I said, this is the wrong time for proposing policy or legislation. It will be days or weeks (or longer) before we have enough information to form an accurate picture of how and why this happened, and what could be done that would ACTUALLY help prevent such things, rather than JUST being feel-good actions that won't really change the situation.

Now is the time to grieve and pray; the time to hug your children and give thanks that they are safe and well; the time to reflect on the preciousness and fragility of life, and to think on those who have lost loved ones today.

Please, don't turn this tragedy into a political football with the blood not even dry and facts few and far between.

Just going to say I largely agree, except with the "better school security" part.
There is a limit to how much security you can provide, until you truly turn schools into an 8 hour prison.

Even with additional security, people with ill intentions will get in and do bad things.
Schools are adding cameras, rfid's, etc.

I'm not being a defeatist, but hell what can you reasonably do to stop bad people, who have no clear warning signs?
 
Of course... that would be normal and expected.



However, I don't know ANYONE in Connecticut and I find it hard to cry for people I don't know enduring tragedy I didn't see first hand.

I don't know anyone in CT either, but I can cry for the children and for the families who's lives have been devastated today.
 
There has to be a middle ground between allowing open access to guns for everyone and banning all guns outright. Both are extremes and unnecessary, but there has to be something there in the middle where we can say "okay we've come up with a system where responsible people can have guns, but irresponsible people cannot."

As Lutherf said above, personal responsibility needs to be encouraged. I think responsible gun ownership is something that takes a backseat to simply allowing access to guns and that's sort of the main problem.

Personal responsibility with gun ownership or personal responsibility generally? In a world where we can only give kids condoms as a way of deterring teen pregnancy, the problems are far more systemic than guns. Going after guns is like taking away a smoker's cigarettes after he has terminal lung cancer and calling him cured.
 
This is a terrible tragedy. I didn't hear the news until later in the afternoon, when the death toll and what had happened was pretty much known, and it all rolled over me like a tidal wave. I felt like someone had gut-punched me, I'm sure I turned pale and looked shocked. It is just inconcievable to me that someone could get so wrong in the head (or heart) as to murder a classroom full of little children. Horrendous, inconcievable, evil act.

As a parent it just tore a hole in me... I could so easily imagine myself in the place of the parents who lost a child today, and the utter horror and emptiness they must feel, the terrible way that the question "WHY?" must echo through their souls.

My heart goes out to them, and also my prayers.

Now we have those who are capitalizing on this tragedy to push their agenda, or who are reacting on emotion to call for instant action of some sort, typically gun control, without taking the time to allow emotions to cool and reason to prevail. To those let me say this: in the heat and heartbreak of such a tragedy is NO TIME to try to set public policy.

Wild emotion and heated reactions have no place in legislation.

We have as of yet far too little information to make judgements and decisions that will turn into legislative policy. We have no idea if any form of gun control would have changed the outcome of this tragedy. The odds are it would not have, since guns are readily available on the black market for those who cannot buy legally.

Many other things have a much better chance of actually CHANGING the outcome of such an event... better school security for starters: I have many questions about how he got in armed and why he was not stopped by an armed school resource officer, questions I as yet have no answers for. In the longer term, changing the way we handle mental illness in this country is very important... HOW did someone get this messed up in the head without someone realizing it and taking steps to intervene?

But even so, as I said, this is the wrong time for proposing policy or legislation. It will be days or weeks (or longer) before we have enough information to form an accurate picture of how and why this happened, and what could be done that would ACTUALLY help prevent such things, rather than JUST being feel-good actions that won't really change the situation.

Now is the time to grieve and pray; the time to hug your children and give thanks that they are safe and well; the time to reflect on the preciousness and fragility of life, and to think on those who have lost loved ones today.

Please, don't turn this tragedy into a political football with the blood not even dry and facts few and far between.

You said it better than I ever could. If I could like this post a thousand times I would.
 
The streets of heaven are too crowded with angels tonight.

I have twin sisters around the same age as the victims that go to a school that looks almost exactly like this school and I can't help but weep for the parents of those little children who won't get to see them open any presents this Christmas... who won't get to see another birthday...

The Streets of heaven are too crowded with angels tonight.
 
Just going to say I largely agree, except with the "better school security" part.
There is a limit to how much security you can provide, until you truly turn schools into an 8 hour prison.

Even with additional security, people with ill intentions will get in and do bad things.
Schools are adding cameras, rfid's, etc.

I'm not being a defeatist, but hell what can you reasonably do to stop bad people, who have no clear warning signs?
I actually read somewhere that the school had just implemented a new security system, so...
 
Rocks kill people.
This is an incredibly weak argument. You and I get into a rock throwing argument or we get into a gun shooting argument....You have the rock and I have the gun....You're dead and I'm writing this....
 
Perhaps we should declare war on mental illness......

What We Know So Far About Connecticut School Shooter Adam Lanza - The Daily Beast

Newtown Patch reports that Ryan Lanza told a close friend that he thinks his developmentally disabled brother committed the crime. ABC News reports that Ryan Lanza “told authorities that his younger brother is autistic, or has Asperger syndrome and a ‘personality disorder.’ Neighbors have described him as “odd” and said he behaves as if he has an obsessive-compulsive disorder.
 
I've been thinking about this all day, and no matter how hard I try, I can't seem to find any sense of peace. 40 parents will never, ever hug their children again. A young man lost his mother and brother at the brother's own hand. Several families will be without moms, dads, brothers, sisters, cousins, nieces, nephews. Friends will never have another sleep over. Hundreds of children will fear the next trip to school and some may never recover. Residents of Newton will not be likely to sleep soundly for a very long time.

And at the end of the day, all I can really do to negate this senseless, horrific act is hug my family a little closer, cherish the children in my life, and hope like hell that those directly effected today find a way to move forward.

But I will NOT politicize the deaths of these children while their bodies are still warm. I will NOT debate semantic arguments, cliched talking points, or radical pro/anti nonsense in relation to gun law. Right now, in this moment....it just doesn't matter. Evil, deranged, sick people will find a way to satisfy their compulsions to do harm. What matters is that those of us with compassion, strength, and a sense of community do what it takes to lift up the broken hearted and carry them until they can walk on their own again. What matters is refilling the world with some of the love and care that was senselessly destroyed today. What matters is helping the surviving students find a way to feel safe again. What matters is the families, friends, first responders...

I am so terribly sad tonight. But I am also incredibly angry at those who would spend more time using victims as fodder for their political agenda than showing legitimate compassion for those in Newton. If it were my child I wouldn't want them used in such a manner, especially before their bodies even made it to the morgue.
 
I've been thinking about this all day, and no matter how hard I try, I can't seem to find any sense of peace. 40 parents will never, ever hug their children again. A young man lost his mother and brother at the brother's own hand. Several families will be without moms, dads, brothers, sisters, cousins, nieces, nephews. Friends will never have another sleep over. Hundreds of children will fear the next trip to school and some may never recover. Residents of Newton will not be likely to sleep soundly for a very long time.

And at the end of the day, all I can really do to negate this senseless, horrific act is hug my family a little closer, cherish the children in my life, and hope like hell that those directly effected today find a way to move forward.

But I will NOT politicize the deaths of these children while their bodies are still warm. I will NOT debate semantic arguments, cliched talking points, or radical pro/anti nonsense in relation to gun law. Right now, in this moment....it just doesn't matter. Evil, deranged, sick people will find a way to satisfy their compulsions to do harm. What matters is that those of us with compassion, strength, and a sense of community do what it takes to lift up the broken hearted and carry them until they can walk on their own again. What matters is refilling the world with some of the love and care that was senselessly destroyed today. What matters is helping the surviving students find a way to feel safe again. What matters is the families, friends, first responders...

I am so terribly sad tonight. But I am also incredibly angry at those who would spend more time using victims as fodder for their political agenda than showing legitimate compassion for those in Newton. If it were my child I wouldn't want them used in such a manner, especially before their bodies even made it to the morgue.

I agree with this. It's sad that people (myself included in this) automatically turned this tragedy into a second amendment debate. Although there is a place for that, now is not the time.
 
I've been thinking about this all day, and no matter how hard I try, I can't seem to find any sense of peace. 40 parents will never, ever hug their children again. A young man lost his mother and brother at the brother's own hand. Several families will be without moms, dads, brothers, sisters, cousins, nieces, nephews. Friends will never have another sleep over. Hundreds of children will fear the next trip to school and some may never recover. Residents of Newton will not be likely to sleep soundly for a very long time.

And at the end of the day, all I can really do to negate this senseless, horrific act is hug my family a little closer, cherish the children in my life, and hope like hell that those directly effected today find a way to move forward.

But I will NOT politicize the deaths of these children while their bodies are still warm. I will NOT debate semantic arguments, cliched talking points, or radical pro/anti nonsense in relation to gun law. Right now, in this moment....it just doesn't matter. Evil, deranged, sick people will find a way to satisfy their compulsions to do harm. What matters is that those of us with compassion, strength, and a sense of community do what it takes to lift up the broken hearted and carry them until they can walk on their own again. What matters is refilling the world with some of the love and care that was senselessly destroyed today. What matters is helping the surviving students find a way to feel safe again. What matters is the families, friends, first responders...

I am so terribly sad tonight. But I am also incredibly angry at those who would spend more time using victims as fodder for their political agenda than showing legitimate compassion for those in Newton. If it were my child I wouldn't want them used in such a manner, especially before their bodies even made it to the morgue.
Eh, I'm not interested in a political discussion either, but this is a political forum - it is the one place people who want political discussion should feel comfortable talking about the political consequences and implications of such a significant event.

I do think, however, that the one liner cheap shots like "all gun owners are responsible for these deaths" or "can't wait to see what the anti-gun nuts have to say now" are indefensible since they are about being mean-spirited rather than trying to communicate a legitimate point. But almost everything that happens in the world is inherently political and in some cases, it is through politics that we can make people feel and actually be safe again, so to condemn political discussion on a political forum doesn't make sense to me.
 
Eh, I'm not interested in a political discussion either, but this is a political forum - it is the one place people who want political discussion should feel comfortable talking about the political consequences and implications of such a significant event.

I do think, however, that the one liner cheap shots like "all gun owners are responsible for these deaths" or "can't wait to see what the anti-gun nuts have to say now" are indefensible since they are about being mean-spirited rather than trying to communicate a legitimate point. But almost everything that happens in the world is inherently political and in some cases, it is through politics that we can make people feel and actually be safe again, so to condemn political discussion on a political forum doesn't make sense to me.

I didn't say it should never be debated, just that I don't personally think this is the time or place.
 
I blame human nature and the psychology of people who think they need to own a gun. you don't buy a gun because it looks nice on your coffe mug tree, you buy a gun to kill a person. I'm sick of this people kill people B.S.... No ****?! That's why they bought a gun DUH!


Actually, I buy guns to kill tasty animals and nasty critters that might harm myself or my domestic animals. I only have one that is for killing people, but that is only if they show up in the middle of the night, don't use the door and come with criminal intent. If possible, I still intend to give them the chance to surrender. I also enjoy occasionally going to the range and shooting holes in paper, it not only improves my accuracy, I find it relaxing sometimes.

Once again, someone is blaming an inanimate object for doing something.

When are we going to wake up and realize that gun free zones are nothing but shooting galleries for the insane people who would do such a thing? If a single teacher or visitor had been armed, how many could of been saved?

It is impossible to remove guns from our society, there are too many and people have legally owned them for too long and for those who live in some rural areas, they are still very much needed. So lets focus on a workable solution, not some liberal fantasy. If you cannot take guns away from bad people, which you cannot, then you have to allow good people guns to defend themselves and other.

While in the military, I was sometimes issued a gun and definitely had intent to kill people with it if necessary. Since I also worked on aircraft that controlled strikes and bombing runs, then, yes, I was a direct accessory to killing thousands, probably more. But, I never actually shot anyone myself and I have owned guns pretty much all my life.
 
I've been thinking about this all day, and no matter how hard I try, I can't seem to find any sense of peace. 40 parents will never, ever hug their children again. A young man lost his mother and brother at the brother's own hand. Several families will be without moms, dads, brothers, sisters, cousins, nieces, nephews. Friends will never have another sleep over. Hundreds of children will fear the next trip to school and some may never recover. Residents of Newton will not be likely to sleep soundly for a very long time.

And at the end of the day, all I can really do to negate this senseless, horrific act is hug my family a little closer, cherish the children in my life, and hope like hell that those directly effected today find a way to move forward.

But I will NOT politicize the deaths of these children while their bodies are still warm. I will NOT debate semantic arguments, cliched talking points, or radical pro/anti nonsense in relation to gun law. Right now, in this moment....it just doesn't matter. Evil, deranged, sick people will find a way to satisfy their compulsions to do harm. What matters is that those of us with compassion, strength, and a sense of community do what it takes to lift up the broken hearted and carry them until they can walk on their own again. What matters is refilling the world with some of the love and care that was senselessly destroyed today. What matters is helping the surviving students find a way to feel safe again. What matters is the families, friends, first responders...

I am so terribly sad tonight. But I am also incredibly angry at those who would spend more time using victims as fodder for their political agenda than showing legitimate compassion for those in Newton. If it were my child I wouldn't want them used in such a manner, especially before their bodies even made it to the morgue.

I agree with you. I don't want any pro or anti gun Monday morning quarterback barking.

I don't know if this some kind of copycat shooting to the Portland mall shooting we just had. Shooting of defenseless little 5-6 year olds was his way of shoving it in our faces. You just keep thinking what could be more tragic than a current killing of innocents and then some piece of cow feces shows you what scum can do.
 
I didn't say it should never be debated, just that I don't personally think this is the time or place.
I know and my point was this is a political forum, so if there is any place to debate it, this is it.
 
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