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Thread: Fox News contributor punched in face at pro-union protests in Michigan [W:867]

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    Re: Fox News contributor punched in face at pro-union protests in Michigan [W:867]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    Are you seriously trying to argue that one cannot provoke a punch being thrown at them?
    I'd rather leave that to the justice system, formal education and those versed in such, but... ok, I'll give it try.

    If you punch someone, it better be in self defense or you've committed a forcible felony and are subject to lethal force (in my state) and felony prosecution. There's really no grey area.

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    Re: Fox News contributor punched in face at pro-union protests in Michigan [W:867]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    This isn't a court of law. This is an internet forum.

    The fact of the matter is that Chowder provoked the violence with malice and intent aforethought. He went down there with every intention of instigating a violent reaction and he got one. Then he had the nerve to cry about it on Faux News.

    This is the point!
    You are talking about moral right and wrong, and that is up to personal opinion. Legally there is no excuse to assault him unless you are defending yourself or possibly someone else. If that is the case you will most likely have to prove self defense in court. Antagonizing someone is somewhat against the law. It falls under breach of peace type laws and you would really have to prove he intended to antagonize people and provoke this sort of thing. he would probably get off easy.

    Remember you don't have any excuse to hit someone just because they say mean things about you. Whether or not you feel you, or someone else, is justified in assault because someone said mean things to them is irrelevant to the law. The guy who assaulted him belongs in jail no matter how annoying his presence was. Seriously, if you hire a lawyer and get off at arraignment you are still probably looking at over a couple of grand for the punch if you are lucky. Court cases, years in a prison made for violent criminals, and a felony assault on your record will make for a really hard time for the rest of your life. Oh, and if the police have enough evidence to prosecute you cannot get the victim to drop charges. The state will prosecute even if the victim forgives you. In this case with video of the event this guy better pray it was his first offense so he might get to plea it down. That is a huge maybe.

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    Re: Fox News contributor punched in face at pro-union protests in Michigan [W:867]

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I'd rather leave that to the justice system, formal education and those versed in such, but... ok, I'll give it try.

    If you punch someone, it better be in self defense or you've committed a forcible felony and are subject to lethal force (in my state) and felony prosecution. There's really no grey area.
    You are dodging the question.

    Assuming you are not from Mars and know a thing or two about human nature, do you think it is possible to provoke someone into punching you in the face?
    It's like you're dreaming of Gorgonzola when it's clearly Brie time, baby. Step into my office.

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    Re: Fox News contributor punched in face at pro-union protests in Michigan [W:867]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    You are dodging the question.

    Assuming you are not from Mars and know a thing or two about human nature, do you think it is possible to provoke someone into punching you in the face?

    Depends on the education, and maturity level.
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    Re: Fox News contributor punched in face at pro-union protests in Michigan [W:867]

    Im almost positive I could provoke you to try to punch me in the face. Im almost as certain you could not provoke me to do the same.

    "Provoke" as a legal term is nonsensical. Legally, there is no provoking with words. Its either self defense or jail time. Its not dodging the question, it IS the question at hand. If you are civilized human being, you dont take a swing at someone because you dont like what they are saying---if not, you just proved you are a victim of your basest responses instead of a thinking, rational human being.

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    Re: Fox News contributor punched in face at pro-union protests in Michigan [W:867]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    Are you seriously trying to argue that one cannot provoke a punch being thrown at them?
    I believe hes arguing there is no justification for doing so legally in our society. I could be wrong.

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    Re: Fox News contributor punched in face at pro-union protests in Michigan [W:867]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    The fact of the matter is that Chowder provoked the violence with malice and intent aforethought.
    Wrong!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    He went down there with every intention of instigating a violent reaction and he got one.
    Wrong!

    Apparently you do not know what facts are.

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    Re: Fox News contributor punched in face at pro-union protests in Michigan [W:867]

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post

    Im almost positive I could provoke you to try to punch me in the face. Im almost as certain you could not provoke me to do the same.
    And I am positive that you would turn me over to the Thought Police if you could. However, this not the point. The point is that Chowder went down to a very legitimate protest against very insidious legislation, and deliberately antagonized the protesters, whom he knew to be rightfully livid about legislation which he and the neofascist propaganda machine he represents had deliberately misinformed the American people. Chowder willfully picked a fight so that the neofascists who employ him could portray the union supporters as violent and criminal, thereby attempting to turn public opinion against organized labor.

    Understand that RTW is not a mere cognitive matter. It is an attack upon the protesters means of making a living and surviving in the world. And whether you recognize it or not, it is an issue which informed middle class citizens should be expected to fight against, physically, as it is a literal declaration of war against, not only organized labor, but the American Dream.

    "Provoke" as a legal term is nonsensical. Legally, there is no provoking with words. Its either self defense or jail time. Its not dodging the question, it IS the question at hand. If you are civilized human being, you dont take a swing at someone because you dont like what they are saying---if not, you just proved you are a victim of your basest responses instead of a thinking, rational human being.
    I am NOT interested in the legalities of the issue. The sort of civil unrest which RTW will manifest in the fullness of time will be entirely outside the bounds of civil and criminal law. Of this, you can be certain. There will be blood in the streets, just as there was during the formative years of organized labor; so get this through your head right now: a mere punch in the face to some ass-clown talking-head is nothing compared to what is sure to come in the not too distant future. I am not saying this prescriptively---that would be redundant considering what we already know about the history of organized labor in conflict with wealthy upper class plutocrats. However, I am saying it descriptively. In the fullness of time, Chowder, and all such mouthpieces for a neofascist plutocracy, will be inclined to say their prayers every time they start their car engine, or even step outside their own front door to pick up the mail. Labor unions are ultimately a street thing since the struggles entailed with obtaining a decent wage and decent working conditions are invariably taken to the streets when representative government merely represents the interests of an uber-wealthy upper class minority (as happens every time RTW legislation is passed).
    It's like you're dreaming of Gorgonzola when it's clearly Brie time, baby. Step into my office.

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    Re: Fox News contributor punched in face at pro-union protests in Michigan [W:867]

    Sorry double posted. Anyway, Crowder must be thrilled with all the publicity he's getting. I'm sure he's already out there brainstorming ideas for how he can play the role of victim again.
    Last edited by Mustachio; 12-22-12 at 05:13 AM.
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    Re: Fox News contributor punched in face at pro-union protests in Michigan [W:867]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    You are dodging the question.

    Assuming you are not from Mars and know a thing or two about human nature, do you think it is possible to provoke someone into punching you in the face?
    I really dislike the Crowder guy from what I've seen and heard from him, but I think it's a bad idea to pursue this train of thought. The Westboro Baptist Church protests with the clear intention of provocation but I still wouldn't ever hit them. Same goes here. Crowder went to that rally to pick a fight and raise his profile, that's obviously true. But that's only another reason he isn't worth punching. It's not right, and it's not worth it.

    Now another point:
    The Newsbusters (I know, I know) article about the "unedited video released by the Crowder team

    Can somebody explain this to me? How does the video in that link suggest anything new? The guy who threw the punch is never shown trying to take the tent down. The worst thing he does before the punch is put his sign in front of one of their cameras for a few seconds. And then the article claims that this "new" footage has extensive evidence of violence and assault but I couldn't find it. There were people apparently in the tent at some point and I have no reason to doubt that the union protestors were trying to take the tent down, but the only thing you see along that line is a guy who unhooks part of the tent from one of the poles holding it up. I just don't see any attempt made by anybody to objectively report what happened there by interviewing people from both sides and finding other footage shot that day. Why hasn't that happened? Wouldn't that clear things up?

    Oh, and that link says that the video I'm talking about was newly released unedited footage, but it is actually an extended version of the first video using two of their cameras. The "new, unedited" version is neither new or unedited. It's edited. And as much as I loathe the use of violence in any situation where it isn't necessary, the conclusion I still have about this whole thing is that they're all wrong and they're all being complete babies in the way they've conducted themselves.
    A working class hero is something to be

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