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Thread: Democrats threaten violence on Michigan House floor

  1. #461
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    Re: Democrats threaten violence on Michigan House floor

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    And that is the absurdity of the union claim. I grew up in Lansing, and had many, many friends that worked for GM. They are what is called a 'closed shop' which means that if you get hired into GM you have NO choice but to join the union, or don't take the job. How is that fairness? I would think if the union is so great they wouldn't need such coercive measures. So, why not open it up to choice....
    Well if everyone knows that they are a 'closed shop' and they are trying to get hired there then they should probably know that they are going to have to join a union.

    What is the downfall of joining a union? that you have to pay union dues? 50 bucks a month for the benefits I get is not that hard of a pill to swallow.

    The argument I was making was not about UAW workers. You brought that up to suit your own point you were trying to make. My point was If you don't like union jobs, dont pursue one. There are plenty of non-union jobs out there for union haters such as yourself to get. In fact some 90% of the jobs out there are non-union.

    Why hate on unions so much?
    Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?
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  2. #462
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    Re: Democrats threaten violence on Michigan House floor

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    WRONG.

    I don't even have to go back a single day to justify the necessity of labor unions. The fact of the matter is that today, and tomorrow, and next week, there are and will be millions of workers in America, and all around the world, who are being grossly exploited by their employers by not being paid a living wage, by having to work in unsafe conditions, by being exposed to unconscionable abuse by their supervisors, etc..

    You talk about greed as if it is something peculiar to the union worker. The fact is that the overwhelming majority of union workers in America earn nothing more than a middle class wage. If you doubt me, then I challenge you to present evidence to the contrary.

    The greed to which you are referring is attributable to the real estate moguls who set the price for the middle class housing in which the union workers reside, and the health care providers who set the price for the health insurance which the union worker needs in order to maintain his physical existence in the world, as well as his job and the health of his family.

    Henceforth, be careful of whom you accuse of being greedy. Maintaining a middle class lifestyle does not make one greedy. It only makes one middle class. In other words, it only makes one desirous of maintaining a modest standard of living.

    Wrong? I don't think so Jasper....Look, The health care ( for whom Obama exempted from his little take over of the system) and the pensions system is what is breaking the system....Union workers in many cases can retire according to years of service, not tied to age of retirement that the nation has to abide by....So as a result you have people retiring from the union job at 50 years old, recieving 75% of better of their salary, and full health care for the rest of their lives....That can be a longer period of time than they actually worked for the company in the first place...How is that sustainable?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Democrats threaten violence on Michigan House floor

    Quote Originally Posted by OnWisconsin View Post
    Well if everyone knows that they are a 'closed shop' and they are trying to get hired there then they should probably know that they are going to have to join a union.

    What is the downfall of joining a union? that you have to pay union dues? 50 bucks a month for the benefits I get is not that hard of a pill to swallow.

    The argument I was making was not about UAW workers. You brought that up to suit your own point you were trying to make. My point was If you don't like union jobs, dont pursue one. There are plenty of non-union jobs out there for union haters such as yourself to get. In fact some 90% of the jobs out there are non-union.

    Why hate on unions so much?
    Because while at a point in their history they were a needed answer to a problem in the country regarding business, that reasoning has been addressed, so they have moved to communist greed, and communist ideology.

    But considering your own avitar, I don't need to tell you that....
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Democrats threaten violence on Michigan House floor

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    That's a good question, Jonny. Why is one better than the other?

    The answer, of course, is that neither are necessarily "better" than the other. They are naturally opposing forces held together by a common interest, namely, the procuring of profits through the sale of company product on the market. The job of company executives (among other things) is to maximize profits for the share holders. The job of the union executives (among other things) is to maximize profits for the employees. Together, they form a peculiar symbiotic relationship, a classic thesis + antihesis = synthesis manifestation.

    That being said, the so-called "Right to Work" concept needs to be recognized for what it is: a clever ploy by company executives to break-up the union and end the aforementioned symbiotic relationship for the total benefit of the share holder, and not for any benefit of the employee, though the deceitful choice of words "Right to Work" are inclined to beguile the naive into believing the contrary.
    And unions need to be recognized for that they are, a clever ploy by union bosses to line their own pockets at the expense of the people they claim to be representing.

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    Re: Democrats threaten violence on Michigan House floor

    I want to see Doug Geiss out in front of the club weilding mob of liberals ready to do battle. The most violent think liberlas ever did was permitting Nancy Pelosi to be seen in public.
    It's nothing more than X's and O's.

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    Re: Democrats threaten violence on Michigan House floor

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Because while at a point in their history they were a needed answer to a problem in the country regarding business, that reasoning has been addressed, so they have moved to communist greed, and communist ideology.

    But considering your own avitar, I don't need to tell you that....
    Isn't that what the barons of industry called unions when they first started, Communistic?
    What is communistic about the ability of workers to choose to join a union and have someone with the power of the collective bargain for better wages and working conditions?

    Is the real problem the fact that unions tend to support Democrats and vice versa?
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: Democrats threaten violence on Michigan House floor

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Isn't that what the barons of industry called unions when they first started, Communistic?
    What is communistic about the ability of workers to choose to join a union and have someone with the power of the collective bargain for better wages and working conditions?

    Is the real problem the fact that unions tend to support Democrats and vice versa?
    I grew up a lot different that apparently many here in that I had higher goals in life than to be a union employee for life, allowing someone else to negotiate my pay rather than my performance, and then retire on a union defined pension. Seems to me that unions destroy incentive and create complacency but then again as many here would say, I could be wrong. That also describes today's Democratic Party, destroying incentive, creating dependence, and social engineering by spending in the name of compassion vs generating compassionate spending thus positive individual results.

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    Re: Democrats threaten violence on Michigan House floor

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    I grew up a lot different that apparently many here in that I had higher goals in life than to be a union employee for life, allowing someone else to negotiate my pay rather than my performance, and then retire on a union defined pension. Seems to me that unions destroy incentive and create complacency but then again as many here would say, I could be wrong. That also describes today's Democratic Party, destroying incentive, creating dependence, and social engineering by spending in the name of compassion vs generating compassionate spending thus positive individual results.
    Joining a union is a lot like hiring a lawyer. You get someone with more power and more experience going to bat for you against an entity that is most likely more powerful and more experienced than you are. Neither is a marriage, 'till death do us part, but is a contract you can end simply by quitting the job and going elsewhere.

    But, you do have one point: If the job you're in has lousy wages and working conditions, there is more of an incentive to move on, to upgrade skills, or to open a private business. That's probably the only justification for maintaining terrible wages and working conditions.

    What makes you think that the Tweedledumocrats do more to destroy incentive than the Tweedledeeblicans do?
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: Democrats threaten violence on Michigan House floor

    If you enjoyed last weekend thank a union.

    Honestly though, I got screwed pretty hard by the union. I worked for three years at Local #113 and a lot of money was put into my pension plan from my employer. The job moved to Chicago and I had to transfer to Local #2. Same union, different local. I worked there 2 years until the job was done.

    But because I wasn't at local # 113 for four full years I wasn't "vested." And because local #113 and local #2 did not have a "reciprocity (sp?)" agreement" between them, I lost ALL of the money my employer paid into my pension. Five years worth. That was THOUSANDS of dollars. The union KEPT it all.

    So, needless to say, I got a F.U. in my pocket for unions.

    What does upset me is the rightwing hypocracy of wanting to keep government out of the private business sector while, all the while, approving of government sticking their dick skinner's in the unions. And the lie they use to justify their hypocracy about actually caring for these workers is just mind boggling. Rightwing corporatist type people don't give two snits for workers. Never have, never will. They just as soon have a chinaman do their work. This is just the government, under republican dominance, attempting to diminish their competition (democrats) by going after their revenue streams. No more, no less. They do not care about workers, union or not. It's all about their dirty politics. Gerrymandering, voter oppression, union busting, is what they are doing in attempt to bolster their OWN power and assure the rich continue to get richer and the poor continue to get poorer and more dependant on the rich.

    No. I'm no fan of the union. But I hate the GOP much, much more.

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    Re: Democrats threaten violence on Michigan House floor

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Joining a union is a lot like hiring a lawyer. You get someone with more power and more experience going to bat for you against an entity that is most likely more powerful and more experienced than you are. Neither is a marriage, 'till death do us part, but is a contract you can end simply by quitting the job and going elsewhere.

    But, you do have one point: If the job you're in has lousy wages and working conditions, there is more of an incentive to move on, to upgrade skills, or to open a private business. That's probably the only justification for maintaining terrible wages and working conditions.

    What makes you think that the Tweedledumocrats do more to destroy incentive than the Tweedledeeblicans do?
    Because with Tweedledumocrats there are never any consequences for failure and always someone else to bail you out. Democrats destroy incentive with this kind of social engineering. You don't hear Republicans demonizing individual wealth creation and promoting class warfare. You really think any Republican cares how much you individually make or pay in taxes?

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