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Thread: Judge finds NC "Choose Life" plate unconstitutioonal

  1. #231
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    Re: Judge finds NC "Choose Life" plate unconstitutioonal

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    Dude you're not even on the same page as I am...
    I know. That's what I have been telling you. ; )

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    I've tried to explain my position and what the correct ruling should have been as simply as I can.
    It's not that your position is misunderstood. It's just that it's related to something other than the matter at hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    A) All sides are wrong...
    So the govt should be able to create a public venue which is allocated solely to proponents of particular political opinions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    B) the judge(s) (both of them) who turned down pro-life and pro-choice plates are wrong
    Can you point to these judges doing this?
    This interpretation of history doesn't seem to be supported by anything.
    Here's the actual ruling which notes the history of the matter.
    http://localtvwghp.files.wordpress.c...ing_121012.pdf

    I don't see anything about another judge or a judge "who turned down pro-life and pro-choice plates."

    So maybe you're talking about some other case?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    C) yes "pro-choice" plates were tried hence the precedent for this ruling
    This doesn't mean what it says. There were precedents cited, but the attempt by NC legislators to get a "Respect Choice" plate for the people of NC was not among the precedents cited.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    It's comical that this is even a debate or discussion considering the fact people can buy bumper stickers (or make their own) that can say or imply anything they want them to.
    Still not the issue.
    I may be wrong.

  2. #232
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    Re: Judge finds NC "Choose Life" plate unconstitutioonal

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    Look, I don't know what the political affiliation of the judge is - I can only assume.

    As an individual who knows law, I can tell you that a "pro-choice" or "pro-life" license plate doesn't violate any persons rights and it certainly doesn't endorse any idea. With that said - I have no idea why the idea was shot down beyond the fact that another idiot judge denied the pro-choice movement to have their "pro-choice" plates.IMO, both are stupid ideas considering (as I pointed out in a previous post) that one can just buy a bumper sticker or license plate liner that says "pro-life" or "pro-choice" so what the hell is the problem?
    Then you don't know the law as well as you think you do. This is an aspect of public forum doctrine, which is a longstanding aspect of the first amendment. Basically, when the government creates a state sponsored forum for private speech (and a state-created license plate with a political message is such a thing) they cannot discriminate amongst viewpoints. The state's refusal to issue a pro-choice license plate while issuing a pro-life plate constitutes viewpoint discrimination and is, therefore, unconstitutional. By analogy, this is like the state creating a website for members of the public to blog about political issues in their state, but censoring those viewpoints with which it disagreed.

  3. #233
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    Re: Judge finds NC "Choose Life" plate unconstitutioonal

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    I could, but why bother? I don't see them as relevant. I think the questions arise from your misunderstanding and lack of info.
    You're free to see my disinclination to respond as a victory on your part if you wish.
    It's exactly as irrelevant as your charge that the judge is "nothing more than a leftwing hack"
    My enjoyment reside entirely here.
    Ya, I already got your non-response response. I didn't need more of the same.

    Who determines each side of the political equation equation?, said in another way, who determines if something is "pro choice" or "pro life", when in reality very few people are purely pro-life or purely pro choice. How do you reconcile these issues? Who gets to determine when something is or isn't "political" in nature, when the term itself is arbitrary? Who will construct the litmus test for "politicality"?

  4. #234
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    Re: Judge finds NC "Choose Life" plate unconstitutioonal

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    This whole topic is about a state law supposedly violating the constitution.
    No it's not actually. Good guess though.
    I may be wrong.

  5. #235
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    Re: Judge finds NC "Choose Life" plate unconstitutioonal

    Quote Originally Posted by vendur View Post
    I find it interesting the sort of illogical dualism found in the idea of "you must present the opposing view". There is not a black and white divide on abortion, there are many shades of grey.
    The idea that there has to a single opposing view is yours. ANY opposing view would fit.

    Quote Originally Posted by vendur View Post
    Who determines the initial meaning, and who chooses what it considered its opposite?
    The initial meaning in this instance has been determined via the history of the plate itself. This is described in the ruling.
    The idea of an "opposite" is yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by vendur View Post
    You could even argue the "kids first" logo was "pro-life" if you want to dive into the semantics, could you not?
    Sure, but you could instead check the history of how the plate came to be instead. Why bother with sophmoric semantics when the actual info is available?

    Quote Originally Posted by vendur View Post
    What of the intermediary views? People that support limited abortions?
    Addressed above with the acknowledgement that any opposibng view fits the bill, not a singular opposing view.

    Quote Originally Posted by vendur View Post
    What would their logo be?
    W/e tf they want I s'pose.

    Quote Originally Posted by vendur View Post
    And, again, we determines all this?
    The people who file to have the custom plates made is how it has been done.
    I may be wrong.

  6. #236
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    Re: Judge finds NC "Choose Life" plate unconstitutioonal

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    Then you don't know the law as well as you think you do. This is an aspect of public forum doctrine, which is a longstanding aspect of the first amendment. Basically, when the government creates a state sponsored forum for private speech (and a state-created license plate with a political message is such a thing) they cannot discriminate amongst viewpoints. The state's refusal to issue a pro-choice license plate while issuing a pro-life plate constitutes viewpoint discrimination and is, therefore, unconstitutional. By analogy, this is like the state creating a website for members of the public to blog about political issues in their state, but censoring those viewpoints with which it disagreed.
    Yeah well "pro-life" means "pro-life" it doesn't necessarily mean "anti-abortion."

    When it comes to law implications are moot. A judge doesn't have the right to define what "pro-choice" means or how an individual should interpret such a slogan.

    Like I said in a previous post - if the license plate said "Oppose Abortion" then there may be a case here but the slogan doesn't say that it says: "pro-life" which is vague at best... "Pro-life" could mean anything, "pro-choice" could mean anything. Those who are fighting this stupid issue tooth and nail may as well say they're "pro-death" and "anti-choice." See how easy that was to spin? I did and I can because the message is so vague.

    Like I said who is a judge to define a couple of words or a slogan?

    Something tells me that if there was a plate that read: "have a nice day " there would be no debate, despite the fact that "have a nice day", "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are the same ideas when it comes to the law, and only a human can misguidedly imply their meanings.

    Also, I think it's pretty stupid we're discussing license plate slogans.

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    Re: Judge finds NC "Choose Life" plate unconstitutioonal

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    Yeah well "pro-life" means "pro-life" it doesn't necessarily mean "anti-abortion."

    When it comes to law implications are moot. A judge doesn't have the right to define what "pro-choice" means or how an individual should interpret such a slogan.

    Like I said in a previous post - if the license plate said "Oppose Abortion" then there may be a case here but the slogan doesn't say that it says: "pro-life" which is vague at best... "Pro-life" could mean anything, "pro-choice" could mean anything. Those who are fighting this stupid issue tooth and nail may as well say they're "pro-death" and "anti-choice." See how easy that was to spin? I did and I can because the message is so vague.

    Like I said who is a judge to define a couple of words or a slogan?

    Something tells me that if there was a plate that read: "have a nice day " there would be no debate, despite the fact that "have a nice day", "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are the same ideas when it comes to the law, and only a human can misguidedly imply their meanings.

    Also, I think it's pretty stupid we're discussing license plate slogans.
    If you read the opinion, you'll find that the organization that sponsors the plate, and partially benefits from its sale, specifically conditioned its sponsorship on a prohibition against funds stemming from its sale "be[ing] distributed to any agency, organization, business, or other entity that provides, promotes, counsels or refers to abortion." So it's pretty ludicrous to suggest that the meaning of the pro-life plate is anything other than a pro-life message. This is also clear from the legislative record (also referenced in the opinion). In short, the judge didn't have to make any such determination. The proponents of the plate specifically intended it to be pro-life. And yes, pro-life does mean anti-abortion. That's a political term specifically about a stance against abortion.
    Last edited by Aderleth; 12-13-12 at 02:53 PM.

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    Re: Judge finds NC "Choose Life" plate unconstitutioonal

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    The idea that there has to a single opposing view is yours. ANY opposing view would fit.

    The initial meaning in this instance has been determined via the history of the plate itself. This is described in the ruling.
    The idea of an "opposite" is yours....any opposibng view fits the bill, not a singular opposing view.
    The entire legal argument is destroyed by the state simply creating a "choose death" plate?

    Why do I think the plaintiffs in this case wouldn't find that satisfactory?

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    Re: Judge finds NC "Choose Life" plate unconstitutioonal

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    If you read the opinion, you'll find that the organization that sponsors the plate, and partially benefits from its sale, specifically conditioned its sponsorship on a prohibition against funds stemming from its sale "be[ing] distributed to any agency, organization, business, or other entity that provides, promotes, counsels or refers to abortion." So it's pretty ludicrous to suggest that the meaning of the pro-life plate is anything other than a pro-life message. This is also clear from the legislative record (also referenced in the opinion). In short, the judge didn't have to make any such determination. The proponents of the plate specifically intended it to be pro-life. And yes, pro-life does mean anti-abortion. That's a political term specifically about a stance against abortion.
    And the government funded Planned Parenthood which provides abortions...

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    Re: Judge finds NC "Choose Life" plate unconstitutioonal

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    And the government funded Planned Parenthood which provides abortions...
    Are we starting a new topic then? Because PP has absolutely nothing to do with this one.

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