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Thread: Govt. borrows 46 cents of every dollar it spends

  1. #181
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    Re: Govt. borrows 46 cents of every dollar it spends

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Can you be more specific? FDR's work programs were a blessing for this country at a time when it was sorely needed.
    The public works programs did not end the depression, but obviously did temporarily help ease the suffering of many - WWII was what actually ended the Great Depression.
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    Re: Govt. borrows 46 cents of every dollar it spends

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    The people who benefit from paving projects are the oil companies whose materials are the big cost of asphalt, and the guys who drive the equipment. It isn't like they take people off welfare and give them a backhoe, dump truck, or asphalt roller or let them put down steel or even direct traffic. Perhaps if your idea of infrastructure were a little more modern than hacking your way through the Blue Ridge Mountain during the depression. The jobs created are highly concentrated in existing industry that just add aggregate demand for isolated things like concrete production, steel work, metal fabrication. That is great for those people, but adds no wide-spread job bump and to hold it out as some great hope for people in manufacturing is just cruel and manipulative.
    All across the country the infrastructure is old and crumbling and in need of modernization. Bridges, sewage systems and the electrical grid are in disrepair and in need of upgrading. Lakes and streams are polluted and need reviving. There are superfund sites that have been waiting decades to be cleaned up. Global warming is upon us and we need to start preparing for the worst with research and development to deal with drought, mass migrations, coastal flooding, diminshing resources, etc. Schools need more teachers because children are our future workforce and will be competing in a global economy. There's a shortage of doctors and engineers and we need to make it cheaper so more students can afford to take those courses. Thats just off the top of my head but I bet if you actually gave it some thought you could think of infrastructure jobs to help the economy, too.

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    Re: Govt. borrows 46 cents of every dollar it spends

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    The public works programs did not end the depression, but obviously did temporarily help ease the suffering of many - WWII was what actually ended the Great Depression.
    And then there was the GI bill that gave veterans an education and improved their quality of life which in turn helped to create the middle class and the largest economic expansion the world has ever seen.

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    Re: Govt. borrows 46 cents of every dollar it spends

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    What, other than a gov't, can "invest" in a roadway, park or public school? I agree that direct gov't "investment" in a private company is wrong (crony capitalism) but that our "public" infrastructure/lands/schools should remain public.
    I give up, who?

    Government is the only one who can invest in roads, schools and parks. At our local and state level we have more of a say on which projects we invest in. As for the federal level, we have no direct say, but I always hope our representatives will do the right thing.

    I believe more in my local government to appropriate funds for projects, on the larger level...sigh.
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    Re: Govt. borrows 46 cents of every dollar it spends

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    All across the country the infrastructure is old and crumbling and in need of modernization. Bridges, sewage systems and the electrical grid are in disrepair and in need of upgrading. Lakes and streams are polluted and need reviving. There are superfund sites that have been waiting decades to be cleaned up. Global warming is upon us and we need to start preparing for the worst with research and development to deal with drought, mass migrations, coastal flooding, diminshing resources, etc. Schools need more teachers because children are our future workforce and will be competing in a global economy. There's a shortage of doctors and engineers and we need to make it cheaper so more students can afford to take those courses. Thats just off the top of my head but I bet if you actually gave it some thought you could think of infrastructure jobs to help the economy, too.
    You have many good points, but you also mix the levels of gov't that should provide these services. The simple facts are that many gov'ts (federal, state and local) have bitten off far more than they can chew, and must make serious choices as to their (our?) priorities. A prime example is just how much is "owed" to those that have "served the public" or "need our help": Federal Gov

    There is, regardless of political lean, a finite amount that may be collected by taxation to fund these gov't services without destroying the private economy needed to supply these tax funds. Just as in a household budget, choices must be made as to the allocation of our income to our expenses, and credit must be used sparingly and responsibly. If it is truely more important to do A rather than B, then that decision can (must?) be made; we are at a point where we can no longer afford to do A and B and also add C.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  6. #186
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    Re: Govt. borrows 46 cents of every dollar it spends

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    All across the country the infrastructure is old and crumbling and in need of modernization. Bridges, sewage systems and the electrical grid are in disrepair and in need of upgrading. Lakes and streams are polluted and need reviving. There are superfund sites that have been waiting decades to be cleaned up. Global warming is upon us and we need to start preparing for the worst with research and development to deal with drought, mass migrations, coastal flooding, diminshing resources, etc. Schools need more teachers because children are our future workforce and will be competing in a global economy. There's a shortage of doctors and engineers and we need to make it cheaper so more students can afford to take those courses. Thats just off the top of my head but I bet if you actually gave it some thought you could think of infrastructure jobs to help the economy, too.
    Well, if I were to think about it, I certainly wouldn't include global warming research, teachers, doctors, and engineers in the category of infrastructure spending. That said, I did not say it isn't necessary, just that it is a false promise to those who have lost their jobs in manufacturing all over the place to think that they will go from baking twinkies for Hostess to building bridges.

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    Re: Govt. borrows 46 cents of every dollar it spends

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    You have many good points, but you also mix the levels of gov't that should provide these services. The simple facts are that many gov'ts (federal, state and local) have bitten off far more than they can chew, and must make serious choices as to their (our?) priorities. A prime example is just how much is "owed" to those that have "served the public" or "need our help": Federal Gov

    There is, regardless of political lean, a finite amount that may be collected by taxation to fund these gov't services without destroying the private economy needed to supply these tax funds. Just as in a household budget, choices must be made as to the allocation of our income to our expenses, and credit must be used sparingly and responsibly. If it is truely more important to do A rather than B, then that decision can (must?) be made; we are at a point where we can no longer afford to do A and B and also add C.
    I think you're right, the states just don't have the funding to do infrasture and pay for all those benefits and medicare on their own. This recession has caused the states to pare down as much as possible without crippling their communities. Some of it was for the good, imo but a lot of it hurt people real bad. Soon the stimulus funding will end and a lot of states are going to find themselves in trouble again and just when they're starting to come out the hole. What a fine mess we're in, Ollie.

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    Re: Govt. borrows 46 cents of every dollar it spends

    Quote Originally Posted by Hairytic View Post
    Obama saw the war in Afghanistan as being more valid than the war in Iraq. As for Iraq, it isn't our business how other people run their country.
    In fact it is important to all of us how other people run their countries because one day we may be strongly effected by their policies. This has happened throughout history. America was at war with Iraq and Afghanistan and Barrack Obama then decides, after many good Service people were killed or wounded, that Iraq was isn't worthwhile (it was) but another is. Then he announces a retreat from that war as well.

    In other American wars there was a continuity of policy, often lasting years as with the Cold war, but everyone knew where America stood. Now there is confusion and malaise, and all coming from the American side. America looks foolish and weak as a result because there is no longer any continuity. This is no longer American Wars being fought, it is Presidential wars, one who decides attack and the next who decides retreat. And as a result foreign interests are already having more interest and input into US politics and policies. America ran from Iraq and now they are retreating from a country that is as third world as they come. This is really opening the US to long term danger.

    Americans are getting killed during these 'training projects' in Afghanistan. Get the hell out now. You have lost. Get the planes ready and move on and the hell with those training programs. You're only training the enemy anyway because the Taleban will be back in power the moment the last plan leaves. ! You want a finely coordinated retreat while Americans are being killed? Run before there are more good people killed.
    As for the bailouts, the president doesn't have to have business experience to act on the powers cranted to him by the constitution and the laws congress has enacted.
    So he can buy any company or corporation he wants, fire the president and board of that company, and just have his people take over. He can give tax dollars to any person who fits his personal criteria in order to start up a company of which he approves, again despite not having any training or experience. And you're saying this is okay because it's in the Constitution? I had respected the US Constitution as being second only to the Magna Carta as one of the most important documents ever devised by man but this seems to illegitimatize the entire work of the forefathers if any politician can take taxpayer money and give it away to their political cronies. What surprises further is that many of the American people seem to be okay with this. No wonder Hugo Chavez supports Barrack Obama!

    We should have never gone into Iraq to begin with. It was only right to get out when we did. If they people of Iraq want the Muslim Brotherhood to rule their country, so be it. It takes time to withdraw from a war. We have to coordinate movement of our equipment and troops as well as wrap up any training projects we have going on. That is taking place now.
    If the people want the Muslim Brotherhood so be it? I remember a Dem in the Clinton Administration once, during the Clinton administration saying that if the people of Cuba want a communist government they should have one. You don't know anything of the Muslim Brotherhood, do you? You'll see it in Libya and Iraq in a decade.

    The projection for a reduction in spending is being hashed out now. Obama hasn't had much cooperation from congress on this, which he must have in order to develop a budget.
    Really? Where does BHO want to reduce spending? Does it come anywhere near $1,000,000,000,000 a year?

    Spending cuts are being negotiated, but the Republicans want to cut medicare and SS as a part of the deal and Obama will not do it. Cutting SS and Medicare will not effect the budget and debt. It is a program funded directly by working Americans.
    So you think all that money is stored away is a safe place somewhere ready to be accessed when you need it?

    The jobs bills Obama has put before congress involved rebuilding the infrastructure which will create jobs. He also wants to stop corporate welfare for corporations that ship jobs over seas. There is a lot our government can do to effect job growth.
    And all these jobs will be paid for with money the American people don't have, keeping in mind that the government has to repay over $16,000,000,000,000 before they have nothing. So how will they pay for it? Borrow the money? Print it? My guess is on the latter because their credit has already been downgraded and will be downgraded again. Inflation is coming.
    He also wants to stop corporate welfare for corporations that ship jobs over seas. There is a lot our government can do to effect job growth.
    How is he going to stop corporations from moving overseas? Force people to stay? Put up a Berlin type Wall? At one time not that long ago everyone wanted to invest in the US, that is was a safe place to put your money, and entrepreneurial types were confident that this was the place to follow their dream. What went wrong? Have you given that much thought?

    Maybe it was all George Bush, huh?

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    Re: Govt. borrows 46 cents of every dollar it spends

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    Well, if I were to think about it, I certainly wouldn't include global warming research, teachers, doctors, and engineers in the category of infrastructure spending. That said, I did not say it isn't necessary, just that it is a false promise to those who have lost their jobs in manufacturing all over the place to think that they will go from baking twinkies for Hostess to building bridges.
    It doesn't neccessarily have to be infrastructure jobs, it just has to be something that gets people back to work. I like your twinkie analogy which reminded me of something I read or heard about those that have a college education are doing a lot better at finding and keeping jobs than those who don't. It used to be you could get a good job right out of HS and move up the ladder. But now even working for McDonalds requires a PhD...of course I'm exagerrating but you get the idea. I was looking at statistics earlier and manufacturing is doing well now. So there are jobs for those without a degrees. But there I think the problem is that people can't relocate as easily as they used to because they got bogged down buying homes and they can't sell them so they can't move to where the jobs are. It's a catch-22 everywhere you look.

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    Re: Govt. borrows 46 cents of every dollar it spends

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    It doesn't neccessarily have to be infrastructure jobs, it just has to be something that gets people back to work. I like your twinkie analogy which reminded me of something I read or heard about those that have a college education are doing a lot better at finding and keeping jobs than those who don't. It used to be you could get a good job right out of HS and move up the ladder. But now even working for McDonalds requires a PhD...of course I'm exagerrating but you get the idea. I was looking at statistics earlier and manufacturing is doing well now. So there are jobs for those without a degrees. But there I think the problem is that people can't relocate as easily as they used to because they got bogged down buying homes and they can't sell them so they can't move to where the jobs are. It's a catch-22 everywhere you look.
    You want jobs, build Keystone. That's a start. And the best part it does not cost the government a dime.
    Last edited by Born Free; 12-12-12 at 10:54 AM.
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