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Thread: Michigan House passes right-to-work law

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    Re: Michigan House passes right-to-work law

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Bot do deserve because both pay into the union and both are part of the union.
    Then you're making contradictory examples here.
    One in my example, is a free rider, while the other is not.
    Paying the same dues, while performing less work, means that someone else is doing more for your lack of work.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    True but more often than not the only way workers gain concessions is through collective action and more often than not the collective action comes from the union and the union members.
    They can still form unions, it just may not be with all workers.
    It's not fair, to unionize a whole work force, when only some want to be a part of it.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Michigan House passes right-to-work law

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Then you're making contradictory examples here.
    One in my example, is a free rider, while the other is not.
    Paying the same dues, while performing less work, means that someone else is doing more for your lack of work.
    Given that no matter what people will always outpefrom each other and often different tasks even inside of union require different amounts of work. No matter what (if i understand your example) is that some people are lazy that is part of any workplace some workers are more lazy than others. However saying that they still pay into the union and are part of the union.


    They can still form unions, it just may not be with all workers.
    It's not fair, to unionize a whole work force, when only some want to be a part of it.
    Its fair. They all benefit from the unions concessions and the unions benefits.


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    Re: Michigan House passes right-to-work law

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Given that no matter what people will always outpefrom each other and often different tasks even inside of union require different amounts of work. No matter what (if i understand your example) is that some people are lazy that is part of any workplace some workers are more lazy than others. However saying that they still pay into the union and are part of the union.
    Yea but one subsidizes the other.
    It's just another free rider problem.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Its fair. They all benefit from the unions concessions and the unions benefits.
    Then don't extend the extra protections and/or benefits to the non union employees.
    It's pretty simple.
    Make it worth the cost of joining.
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    Re: Michigan House passes right-to-work law

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Limits free rider problem, a way of ensuring that all workers incur the costs of collective bargaining (e.g., join the union and pay dues) so that everyone is better off, restricts freedom of association by not allowing workers and employers to agree to contracts that include share fees and then also creates the free rider problem, lowers wages and worker health and safety is also endangered, also these kind of laws place limits on the sort of agreements individuals who act collectively can make with their employer.
    No, not everyone is better off. In fact, everyone is worse off when the union bankrupts the company and everyone loses their job. If I don't want to be a part of a union that is my right. It is my right to say that the union cannot use me as extra political weight to throw around.

    If you want to eliminate the "free rider" problem, just have union contracts only valid for union workers in the company. If I don't want to be a part of the union fine, but I have to negogiate my own wages. Say union dues are $2000 a year, I'll just accept a wage that is $1000 a year less than the union wage, and thus would actually make more than if I were in the union, and be cheaper for the company at the same time.

    If I have a problem with how the company is being run that goes beyond compensation, I can either leave the company or forfeit that extra $1000 for negotiation power.

    The point is, I'm not forced to choose either between a completely non-unionized sector, or a completely unionized sector. Dichotomies are generally a bad solution to any problem. And I'm willing to bet that unions would be more frequent under my model, because its not all or nothing. Its not 100% of the work force or 0%, so employers aren't so much life or death on the issue.

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    Re: Michigan House passes right-to-work law

    Quote Originally Posted by Risky Thicket View Post
    Not really. Who is continuing, even after the election, to attempt to ramrod female reproduction control down the throats of America? Even though the majority of Americans support pro-choice. Even though 50 percent of Catholics supported Obama. Who voted against ratification of a U.N. treaty that calls upon countries to ensure disabled citizens receive the same rights and freedoms as their able-bodied peers? (Because, they said, in part that it would support abortion!) The same dickwits that cannot understand that America doesn't accept the reactionary ideals of the Tea Party, Rick Santorum, Glenn Beck, Rick Perry and their ilk.

    These people, this small cabal of ultra-right religionists, who are apparently hell-bent on social engineering an entire nation to conform with their twisted world view, who are intolerant and narrow minded, who are unwilling to recognize views and the wishes of the majority of citizens in this representative democracy, are doing all they possibly can to take the nation backwards. There intentions are evident in all that they say and do. It is thus no surprise to me that these same people who would deny equal rights to women and to people who are disabled would also deny rights to American workers.

    Talking points? Not ****ing likely. Anyone on this board who is familiar with my posts knows that I truly have no political affiliation other than commonsense and equality. More people here seem to be leaning toward commonsense. Some continue to be predictable partisan hacks, partisan hacks who have displayed time and time and time again that they are unable and unwilling to think for themselves.
    That is by far the biggest Red Herring I have ever seen.
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    Re: Michigan House passes right-to-work law

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Good study what kind of impact these laws have on workers..
    http://www.epi.org/page/-/old/briefi...ngPaper299.pdf


    • Wages in right-to-work states are 3.2% lower than those in non-RTW states, after controlling for a full complement of individual demographic and socioeconomic variables as well as state macroeconomic indicators. Using the average wage in non-RTW states as the base ($22.11), the average full-time, full-year worker in an RTW state makes about $1,500 less annually than a similar worker in a non-RTW state.
    • The rate of employer-sponsored health insurance (ESI) is 2.6 percentage points lower in RTW states compared with non-RTW states, after controlling for individual, job, and state-level characteristics. If workers in non-RTW states were to receive ESI at this lower rate, 2 million fewer workers nationally would be covered.
    • The rate of employer-sponsored pensions is 4.8 percentage points lower in RTW states, using the full complement of control variables in [the study's] regression model. If workers in non-RTW states were to receive pensions at this lower rate, 3.8 million fewer workers nationally would have pensions.

    Who exactly is EPI? Let's see....

    It's also important to note what sort of organization the innocuously named Economic Policy Institute is. By just taking a look at the EPI board of directors, we find that 10 of the board members are heads or former heads of national unions, including Richard Trumka (AFL-CIO), Randi Weingarten (American Federation of Teachers), Andy Stern and Anna Burger (SEIU), Ron Gettelfinger (United Auto Workers), and Leo Gerard (United Steelworkers of America). Consider also that one of the institute's former senior economists, Jared Bernstein, is now the chief economist and economic policy advisor to Vice President Joe Biden.

    Just a Reminder: The Economic Policy Institute is Dominated by Labor Interests | The Weekly Standard

    Hmmmm...So, the union take on the subject should be taken as gospel, and all whom disagree with union numbers are either dishonest, or lying am I getting close?
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    Re: Michigan House passes right-to-work law

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    By just taking a look at the EPI board of directors, we find that 10 of the board members are heads or former heads of national unions, including Richard Trumka (AFL-CIO), Randi Weingarten (American Federation of Teachers), Andy Stern and Anna Burger (SEIU), Ron Gettelfinger (United Auto Workers), and Leo Gerard (United Steelworkers of America). Consider also that one of the institute's former senior economists, Jared Bernstein, is now the chief economist and economic policy advisor to Vice President Joe Biden.
    Owned DemSocialist...try again

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    Re: Michigan House passes right-to-work law

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Good study what kind of impact these laws have on workers..
    http://www.epi.org/page/-/old/briefi...ngPaper299.pdf


    • Wages in right-to-work states are 3.2% lower than those in non-RTW states, after controlling for a full complement of individual demographic and socioeconomic variables as well as state macroeconomic indicators. Using the average wage in non-RTW states as the base ($22.11), the average full-time, full-year worker in an RTW state makes about $1,500 less annually than a similar worker in a non-RTW state.
    • The rate of employer-sponsored health insurance (ESI) is 2.6 percentage points lower in RTW states compared with non-RTW states, after controlling for individual, job, and state-level characteristics. If workers in non-RTW states were to receive ESI at this lower rate, 2 million fewer workers nationally would be covered.
    • The rate of employer-sponsored pensions is 4.8 percentage points lower in RTW states, using the full complement of control variables in [the study's] regression model. If workers in non-RTW states were to receive pensions at this lower rate, 3.8 million fewer workers nationally would have pensions.
    psssttt...even your link shows that unemployment in RTW states are lower than in non-RTW states...
    Last edited by Kal'Stang; 12-09-12 at 07:37 PM.
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    Re: Michigan House passes right-to-work law

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Good study what kind of impact these laws have on workers..
    http://www.epi.org/page/-/old/briefi...ngPaper299.pdf
    Interesting article, thanks for the link. I found table 1 especially informative. Did you notice the race (white/black) disparity between non-RTW vs. RTW? Yeah, the RTW states percentage of black folks is almost twice that of non-RTW states. Also informative was the education level achieved by the non-RTW states. Yeah, they did have more college graduates (inc. post degrees) but rated lower in the lower categories. One could conclude that the non-RTW states are dumb racists states…OR they ran all the blacks out of their states then gained a college degree to join a union…I’m sure those loans for the college degrees were sound investments…
    "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure" - 2006 Senator Obama...leadership failure indeed!

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    Re: Michigan House passes right-to-work law

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Good study what kind of impact these laws have on workers..
    http://www.epi.org/page/-/old/briefi...ngPaper299.pdf


    • Wages in right-to-work states are 3.2% lower than those in non-RTW states, after controlling for a full complement of individual demographic and socioeconomic variables as well as state macroeconomic indicators. Using the average wage in non-RTW states as the base ($22.11), the average full-time, full-year worker in an RTW state makes about $1,500 less annually than a similar worker in a non-RTW state.
    • The rate of employer-sponsored health insurance (ESI) is 2.6 percentage points lower in RTW states compared with non-RTW states, after controlling for individual, job, and state-level characteristics. If workers in non-RTW states were to receive ESI at this lower rate, 2 million fewer workers nationally would be covered.
    • The rate of employer-sponsored pensions is 4.8 percentage points lower in RTW states, using the full complement of control variables in [the study's] regression model. If workers in non-RTW states were to receive pensions at this lower rate, 3.8 million fewer workers nationally would have pensions.
    After reading it some more I also noticed that the cost of living in RTW states is lower than that of non-RTW states. So naturally the cost of health benefits and wages would be lower.

    In essense what you, and they showed...(and I find it highly amusing that neither you nor they picked up on this)...is that unions drive prices up and there by the cost of living up.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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