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Thread: Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood accused of paying gangs to rape women[W:58]

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    Re: Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood accused of paying gangs to rape women[W:58]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    The only change in Islam is that it is becoming ever more militant and violent. Otherwise the same old prejudices remain.
    Have you spent any time in the ME? What have you experienced first hand?

    From my perspective the Arab countries have always been safe and friendly.

    I will grant you that Saudi Arabia took a huge step backward in 1979 for a number of reasons... ... but from my experience reform has been in the air since 2000 and is proceeding quite rapidly since 2005.
    Here's an excerpt from a very long piece.

    I have chosen the fierce debate over gender mixing (ikhtilat) as an illustration of the convoluted process of reform. Gender segregation in schools, universities, charitable organizations, hospitals, restaurants, government offices and other public spaces is one of the defining features of Saudi Arabia. As several researchers have pointed out, this is not a traditional practice in Saudi society.9 It was actively promoted in the 1980s and 1990s by the state, the revivalist Sahwa movement,10 conservative ulama and the religious police, who enforce public moral behavior. Although the position of women has improved since 9/11, ikhtilat demarcates the battle lines between reformists and conservatives. Any attempt to diminish its enforcement is regarded as a direct attack on the standing of conservatives and Islam itself.11

    In the following pages, I trace the ikhtilat debate from its eruption in October 2009 to the start of its fourth round in May 2010. I closely analyze the arguments and positions of the four main players around which the debate has concentrated (Sheikh Saad al-****hri, Sheikh Ahmad al-Ghamidi, Sheikh Abd al-Rahman al-Barrak, and Sheikh Yusuf al-Ahmad), examine their backgrounds and allies, and assess the support or neglect they have garnered in higher state circles.

    THE PLAYERS

    Revising strict gender segregation has been on the agenda for the past 10 years,12 but what really triggered the present clash of interests was the decision on February 14, 2009, to overhaul the personnel of the highest government agencies.13 The opening in September 2009 of the King Abdullah University of Science and Technology (KAUST), which has become the symbol of reform and acceptable ikhtilat, exacerbated the already deep apprehension of the conservatives.

    Middle East Policy Council | Reform in Saudi Arabia: The Gender-Segregation Debate

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    Re: Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood accused of paying gangs to rape women[W:58]

    Where did you go, Grant? I thought we were going to have a conversation.

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    Re: Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood accused of paying gangs to rape women[W:58]

    Quote Originally Posted by sharon View Post
    Have you spent any time in the ME? What have you experienced first hand?
    Unfortunately, Islam is not confined to the Middle East.



    From my perspective the Arab countries have always been safe and friendly.
    Then you cannot Jewish, Christian or Gay.

    I will grant you that Saudi Arabia took a huge step backward in 1979 for a number of reasons... ... but from my experience reform has been in the air since 2000 and is proceeding quite rapidly since 2005.
    Which Middle East country actually took a step forward?
    Here's an excerpt from a very long piece.

    I have chosen the fierce debate over gender mixing (ikhtilat) as an illustration of the convoluted process of reform. Gender segregation in schools, universities, charitable organizations, hospitals, restaurants, government offices and other public spaces is one of the defining features of Saudi Arabia. As several researchers have pointed out, this is not a traditional practice in Saudi society.9 It was actively promoted in the 1980s and 1990s by the state, the revivalist Sahwa movement,10 conservative ulama and the religious police, who enforce public moral behavior. Although the position of women has improved since 9/11, ikhtilat demarcates the battle lines between reformists and conservatives. Any attempt to diminish its enforcement is regarded as a direct attack on the standing of conservatives and Islam itself.11

    In the following pages, I trace the ikhtilat debate from its eruption in October 2009 to the start of its fourth round in May 2010. I closely analyze the arguments and positions of the four main players around which the debate has concentrated (Sheikh Saad al-****hri, Sheikh Ahmad al-Ghamidi, Sheikh Abd al-Rahman al-Barrak, and Sheikh Yusuf al-Ahmad), examine their backgrounds and allies, and assess the support or neglect they have garnered in higher state circles.

    THE PLAYERS

    Revising strict gender segregation has been on the agenda for the past 10 years,12 but what really triggered the present clash of interests was the decision on February 14, 2009, to overhaul the personnel of the highest government agencies.13 The opening in September 2009 of the King Abdullah University of Science and Technology (KAUST), which has become the symbol of reform and acceptable ikhtilat, exacerbated the already deep apprehension of the conservatives.

    Middle East Policy Council | Reform in Saudi Arabia: The Gender-Segregation Debate
    Thank you for that but it doesn't demonstrate that Islam, or its adherents, are moving any closer to the modern world and a more "live and let live" philosophy. These backward people are simply not intelligent enough to tell others how to live their lives, what sexual rules others might have, how women should behave, or any of that. I really don't care much about their internecine difficulties but it is spilling over to the civilized world, and that should be a concern to everyone.

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    Re: Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood accused of paying gangs to rape women[W:58]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Unfortunately, Islam is not confined to the Middle East.



    Then you cannot Jewish, Christian or Gay.


    Which Middle East country actually took a step forward?


    Thank you for that but it doesn't demonstrate that Islam, or its adherents, are moving any closer to the modern world and a more "live and let live" philosophy. These backward people are simply not intelligent enough to tell others how to live their lives, what sexual rules others might have, how women should behave, or any of that. I really don't care much about their internecine difficulties but it is spilling over to the civilized world, and that should be a concern to everyone.
    Oh I am Christian and there are many gays in Saudi Arabia...

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    Re: Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood accused of paying gangs to rape women[W:58]

    Quote Originally Posted by sharon View Post
    Where did you go, Grant? I thought we were going to have a conversation.
    Sometimes real life interferes!

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    Re: Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood accused of paying gangs to rape women[W:58]

    Then a great deal depends where you are in the Middle east, I suppose.

    I can be Gay, Jewish or Christian anywhere in the western democracies and feel perfectly safe. Not so in the Middle east.

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    Re: Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood accused of paying gangs to rape women[W:58]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Then a great deal depends where you are in the Middle east, I suppose.

    I can be Gay, Jewish or Christian anywhere in the western democracies and feel perfectly safe. Not so in the Middle east.
    Admittedly the only places I have lived are Saudi Arabia, Libya and Kuwait.......

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    Re: Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood accused of paying gangs to rape women[W:58]

    Quote Originally Posted by sharon View Post
    Admittedly the only places I have lived are Saudi Arabia, Libya and Kuwait.......
    That's pretty good. I had a stopover in Bahrain airport once for a few hours but that's been my only visit, if you can even call it that.

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    Re: Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood accused of paying gangs to rape women[W:58]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    That's pretty good. I had a stopover in Bahrain airport once for a few hours but that's been my only visit, if you can even call it that.
    I was over there for two decades. with many visits to Iran and Iraq and multiple longer visits to Jordan and Lebanon... so I have a keen interests in the region.. I never had any problems and I am obviously an American Christian.

    I never encountered terrorists, militants and extremists so I tend to think they are a minority.

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