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Thread: IRS aims to clarify investment income tax under healthcare law

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    Re: IRS aims to clarify investment income tax under healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Support this lie.....
    It's really math. Government gives the school dollars. This lowers tuition that students have to pay. When budget cuts hit schools, tuition went up (not down). This is particularly true at state schools.

    A new study from the New York Federal Reserve shows declining state and local financial support for public higher education is causing tuition to skyrocket, increasing much faster than at private colleges.

    State Budget Cuts Drive Up Tuition At Public Universities: New York Federal Reserve Report

    The average tuition at a four-year public university climbed 15% between 2008 and 2010, fueled by state budget cuts for higher education and increases of 40% and more at universities in states like Georgia, Arizona and California.

    Average cost of four-year university up 15%

    Ehrhart said the system already has made numerous spending cuts, such as merging its 33 colleges around the state to 25 institutions. The system also has relied more on part-time instructors, who are less costly than full-time teachers.

    “They have cut to the bone,” Ehrhart said.

    The institutional fee was in response to there being little else to cut, system leaders said. This charge is similar to one the State Board of Regents started in 2009 for students attending the University System of Georgia. That fee was created to offset state budget cuts and was supposed to end this summer. But leaders kept the fee saying the system can’t afford to lose the $210 million a year it brings in.

    Higher tuition and fees in the technical system could raise as much as $18 million this year and as much as $42 million next year, Light said.

    Technical colleges increase tuition amid state budget cuts | www.ajc.com

    As recently as eight years ago, Colorado funded roughly two-thirds of tuition costs; students paid the remaining third, either directly, or through grants, loans, or scholarships. Now this formula is reversed. Students increasingly rely on loans to bridge the gap between what they can afford and what scholarships and grants cover. All public Colorado institutions have been forced to dramatically increase tuition, thanks to state funding cuts.

    Commentary: Government cuts = higher tuition | EdNewsColorado

    You may argue it's proper to raise it on them, but you can't deny the facts. Cuts translate into higher tuition.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: IRS aims to clarify investment income tax under healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It's really math. Government gives the school dollars. This lowers tuition that students have to pay. When budget cuts hit schools, tuition went up (not down). This is particularly true at state schools.

    A new study from the New York Federal Reserve shows declining state and local financial support for public higher education is causing tuition to skyrocket, increasing much faster than at private colleges.

    State Budget Cuts Drive Up Tuition At Public Universities: New York Federal Reserve Report

    The average tuition at a four-year public university climbed 15% between 2008 and 2010, fueled by state budget cuts for higher education and increases of 40% and more at universities in states like Georgia, Arizona and California.

    Average cost of four-year university up 15%

    Ehrhart said the system already has made numerous spending cuts, such as merging its 33 colleges around the state to 25 institutions. The system also has relied more on part-time instructors, who are less costly than full-time teachers.

    “They have cut to the bone,” Ehrhart said.

    The institutional fee was in response to there being little else to cut, system leaders said. This charge is similar to one the State Board of Regents started in 2009 for students attending the University System of Georgia. That fee was created to offset state budget cuts and was supposed to end this summer. But leaders kept the fee saying the system can’t afford to lose the $210 million a year it brings in.

    Higher tuition and fees in the technical system could raise as much as $18 million this year and as much as $42 million next year, Light said.

    Technical colleges increase tuition amid state budget cuts | www.ajc.com

    As recently as eight years ago, Colorado funded roughly two-thirds of tuition costs; students paid the remaining third, either directly, or through grants, loans, or scholarships. Now this formula is reversed. Students increasingly rely on loans to bridge the gap between what they can afford and what scholarships and grants cover. All public Colorado institutions have been forced to dramatically increase tuition, thanks to state funding cuts.

    Commentary: Government cuts = higher tuition | EdNewsColorado

    You may argue it's proper to raise it on them, but you can't deny the facts. Cuts translate into higher tuition.

    As I would expect, an educrat places the lion share of blame on not enough government subsidy for their insane tuition hikes we've seen over the past decade of more....There are ofcourse many different reasons that tuition goes up, and I have no doubt that a school facing a government subsidy cut would instead of looking for a way to do the job more efficiently, instead pile that lack of funding on the backs of the customer. Funny how that works isn't it?

    Anyway, I found an article from the fiscal times that highlights a dozen reasons for the absurd hikes....they are as follows...

    1. Third party payments. When someone other than the consumer is paying some of the bills, the customer is not very sensitive to prices. Health care prices have soared for that reason, and it is contributing to the college price explosion as well.

    2. Lack of information. For markets to work effectively, buyers and sellers need lots of information. Yet colleges (in the information business) and their customers, are remarkably ignorant about key aspects of higher education. Do seniors know more or think better than freshmen? Does the senior year add as much value to a student’s knowledge, sense of right or wrong, leadership or critical thinking skills, etc., as the sophomore year? How much do students apply themselves? Do they like their school? What do they earn five years after graduation? Does a sociology degree have the same vocational relevance as a degree in accounting or mechanical engineering? Answers to these and many other questions would help students and academic administrators make intelligent resource allocation decisions – yet no answers are available.

    3. Most higher education is not for profit. While most academics view that as a great virtue, I don’t. The lack of a profit motive reduces incentives to cut costs, improve product quality, and other things necessary to make profits and enhance wealth in the private market economy.

    4. Closely related is the term bottom line. General Motors and Wal-Mart have well defined bottom lines –the stock price and profits. What is the bottom line for Harvard or Slippery Rock State? Who knows? How can you achieve goals if you don’t know, in a well defined sense, what they are? How can you get “more productive” when you cannot even measure your outputs well?

    5. Resource rigidities are a problem. Tenure makes it hard to move faculty resources from areas of low demand to those of higher demand. Faculty with lifetime appointments can fight innovation and change with relatively few adverse consequences, stifling innovation. Universities own large buildings that are often underutilized, particularly after changing consumer demand renders some of them obsolete.


    6. There are problems with barriers to entry and restrictions on competition. Both accreditation agencies and regulators make it difficult for small but innovative new institutions to begin. For example, proposals to require “state authorization” of on-line instruction in every state in which an institution operates forces smaller on-line companies out of the market in some states.

    7. The public nature of support and control of schools containing most students means that higher education is now, in some sense, politicized. Universities have to conform to rules in order to get government grants or allow students to receive student loans, and these rules do not always make sense, having a “one size fits all” dimension to them.

    8. Universities try to charge what the traffic will bear, engaging in massive price discrimination, favoring some students (poorer ones, extremely bright ones, students of color) more than others (more affluent, less bright kids, white students.)

    9. Universities engage in rent-seeking – receiving more payments than necessary to provide services. Workers sometimes receive inflated salaries not justified by market conditions or merit. Salaries are higher for those who get research grants for time off from teaching to do research, compared with those who continue to teach full loads.

    10. Many schools, especially large research universities engage in massive cross-subsidization, showering vast resources on some activities, such as graduate education, while providing little for, say, undergraduate instruction. Lower teaching loads to promote research are subsidized by tuition fees ostensibly paid to provide for student instruction. This increases tuition sticker prices.

    11. Ownership of universities is murky. Many groups think they own “their” school –the faculty, the trustees (the legal owners usually), the alumni, state government officials, sometimes even students. This leads to turf wars and unproductive wastes of resources; for example, the chemistry department might forbid others from using “their” building, even though it might be wiser to use some of the space for other needs.

    12. There are often massive governance problems. Who runs the schools? There are several who claim that right, leading to murky decision-making, often by committees (“shared governance”) of a non-innovative nature to appease all powerful claimants.

    Read more at 12 Reasons College Costs Keep Rising


    So as you can see Joe, the problems are far larger than institutions not being able to suckle off the government teet. Much of it has to do with what the problem with K - 12 ed as well...Top heavy in administration personal, Too many tenured instructors that don't contribute to over all education as their salary would expect, and consensus group think....


    Could you address these 12 reasons laid out?
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    Re: IRS aims to clarify investment income tax under healthcare law

    I'll be back for more later j, but this one isn't entirely true:

    3. Most higher education is not for profit. While most academics view that as a great virtue, I don’t. The lack of a profit motive reduces incentives to cut costs, improve product quality, and other things necessary to make profits and enhance wealth in the private market economy.


    The largest abusers are privates, and they have higher tuition. I've linked it before and will so again when I get time.

    Joe

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: IRS aims to clarify investment income tax under healthcare law

    So, let's see, the federal government seeks to increase funding to STATE universities. They raise taxes to do so. The people then hector their state politicians to reduce state taxes so they can afford to buy silly things like food. The state lowers their tax and the net effect is that tuition rates climb. Take the feds out of the process and allow the states to fund STATE universities.

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    Re: IRS aims to clarify investment income tax under healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I'll be back for more later j, but this one isn't entirely true:

    3. Most higher education is not for profit. While most academics view that as a great virtue, I don’t. The lack of a profit motive reduces incentives to cut costs, improve product quality, and other things necessary to make profits and enhance wealth in the private market economy.


    The largest abusers are privates, and they have higher tuition. I've linked it before and will so again when I get time.

    Joe

    That's fine, just make sure to be able to say why you think something is untrue, not just make the declarative statement....That won't fly.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: IRS aims to clarify investment income tax under healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    That's fine, just make sure to be able to say why you think something is untrue, not just make the declarative statement....That won't fly.
    FACT: According to the Department of Education, (as reported in The Washington Times), 26 percent of all student loan money and 46 percent of all student loan dollars in default come from for-profit programs, despite the fact they account for just 12 percent of college students.

    FACT: These schools aren't cheap—despite the lack of campuses or classrooms or counseling or even much personal interaction with faculty members. Again, according to the Education Department, (as reported in USA Today), for-profits cost on average $30,900 per year compared to public colleges at $15,600 and private, non-profits at $26,600.

    (snip)

    [Students at For-Profit Colleges Earn Less, Study Says]

    FACT: Not enough of this taxpayer money is going to educate students—for-profits devote less than one third of the money that public institutions do to instruction. It is even less than one fifth of what private non-profit institutions provide (Department of Education). Those are huge and disturbing gaps.

    (snip)

    FACT: As the New York Times reported last December, these for-profits spent $16 million dollars on lobbyists to confront the Obama administration, members of Congress like Sens. Tom Harkin and Dick Durbin, and many others, to prevent any legislation. Instead of "cleaning house" the for-profits sought to "clean up" by keeping those federal dollars rolling in. Courageous members Harkin and Durbin have stood their ground against the onslaught.

    For-Profit Colleges Must Crack Down on Predatory Practices - Peter Fenn (usnews.com)

    This combination of nave students and misleading information allows for-profit colleges to set tuition in line with their profit goals (many of these colleges are publicly-traded companies) rather than in line with the cost of education. Figure A shows that the average cost of a certificate program at a for-profit college is 4.7 times the cost of an equivalent program at a public community college. The average cost of an associate degree is 4.2 times what it would cost at a typical community college. Bachelor’s degree programs average 19 percent higher at a for-profit college than at a flagship state public university.

    High cost and high debt for students at for-profit colleges | Economic Policy Institute


    For-profit schools cash in on GI Bill meant for veterans - Jun. 26, 2012

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: IRS aims to clarify investment income tax under healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    FACT: According to the Department of Education, (as reported in The Washington Times), 26 percent of all student loan money and 46 percent of all student loan dollars in default come from for-profit programs, despite the fact they account for just 12 percent of college students.

    FACT: These schools aren't cheap—despite the lack of campuses or classrooms or counseling or even much personal interaction with faculty members. Again, according to the Education Department, (as reported in USA Today), for-profits cost on average $30,900 per year compared to public colleges at $15,600 and private, non-profits at $26,600.

    (snip)

    [Students at For-Profit Colleges Earn Less, Study Says]

    FACT: Not enough of this taxpayer money is going to educate students—for-profits devote less than one third of the money that public institutions do to instruction. It is even less than one fifth of what private non-profit institutions provide (Department of Education). Those are huge and disturbing gaps.

    (snip)

    FACT: As the New York Times reported last December, these for-profits spent $16 million dollars on lobbyists to confront the Obama administration, members of Congress like Sens. Tom Harkin and Dick Durbin, and many others, to prevent any legislation. Instead of "cleaning house" the for-profits sought to "clean up" by keeping those federal dollars rolling in. Courageous members Harkin and Durbin have stood their ground against the onslaught.

    For-Profit Colleges Must Crack Down on Predatory Practices - Peter Fenn (usnews.com)

    This combination of nave students and misleading information allows for-profit colleges to set tuition in line with their profit goals (many of these colleges are publicly-traded companies) rather than in line with the cost of education. Figure A shows that the average cost of a certificate program at a for-profit college is 4.7 times the cost of an equivalent program at a public community college. The average cost of an associate degree is 4.2 times what it would cost at a typical community college. Bachelor’s degree programs average 19 percent higher at a for-profit college than at a flagship state public university.

    High cost and high debt for students at for-profit colleges | Economic Policy Institute


    For-profit schools cash in on GI Bill meant for veterans - Jun. 26, 2012

    Ok, now thanks for that, now show me where Universities themselves with their huge endowments, and bloated administration, and instructor costs, according to the picture you are painting here have any accountability at all in this? I think you are trying hard to shift blame to banks, to even students themselves for poor choices, but I don't see any honesty in accountability coming from your postings here on this...Why is that?

    If I were to look at this with a blank slate, I would have to conclude that Collages, and Universities were doing the same thing to students, that happened with the housing collapse.

    In what world does a 40% increase in tuition within a 5 year period seem justifiable in the real world to you? If an Oil company did this you'd be leading the charge calling them greedy pigs.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: IRS aims to clarify investment income tax under healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Ok, now thanks for that, now show me where Universities themselves with their huge endowments, and bloated administration, and instructor costs, according to the picture you are painting here have any accountability at all in this? I think you are trying hard to shift blame to banks, to even students themselves for poor choices, but I don't see any honesty in accountability coming from your postings here on this...Why is that?

    If I were to look at this with a blank slate, I would have to conclude that Collages, and Universities were doing the same thing to students, that happened with the housing collapse.

    In what world does a 40% increase in tuition within a 5 year period seem justifiable in the real world to you? If an Oil company did this you'd be leading the charge calling them greedy pigs.
    You lack a lot of understanding of this my friend. State schools report to a board, department of ed, and state legislators. There's a reason why they don't pray on the public. They have to account for not only dollars, but results. Assessment has been the way of life for a long time. Public schools are far more "ACCOUNTABLE" in every important way.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  9. #39
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    Re: IRS aims to clarify investment income tax under healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    You lack a lot of understanding of this my friend. State schools report to a board, department of ed, and state legislators. There's a reason why they don't pray on the public. They have to account for not only dollars, but results. Assessment has been the way of life for a long time. Public schools are far more "ACCOUNTABLE" in every important way.

    Well, surprise, we disagree. However, that was one small portion of the 12 reasons I gave you. Should I assume that you agree with the others?

    Oh, and you never addressed why it is that some schools tuitions have risen absurdly fast, and completely out of kilter with anything remotely approaching accountable.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: IRS aims to clarify investment income tax under healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Taxes (government support) keeps tuition down at state schools. Allows more people to attend school. It's called teaching hem to fish.
    Hard to fish with out the pond. Or lake, or ocean.
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