• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

‘Fiscal Cliff’ Could Put Millions of Taxpayers Into ‘AMT Shock’ [W:66]

j-mac said:
Obama's plan is a joke. Ryan offered a plan last time we were at this juncture, and Obama invited him to a speech where Ryan thought he was going to hear some kind of counter, and instead his plan was publicly mocked, and Ryan called 'un-American'....

Obama's budgets are a joke, and can't even get passed by Demo's in his own caucus...Then he mistakenly interprets a 2 or 3% victory as some kind of landslide mandate and spits out this kind of insulting proposal? Turn over congressional authority to oversee raising of the debt celling? Are you serious? Pfft....Nope, no, not nope, Hell NO!
Click to expand...

I'm sorry j, but that is blind partisanship and little more. They're all quite capable.
 
Boo Radley said:
I'm sorry j, but that is blind partisanship and little more. They're all quite capable.
Click to expand...

When Obama exhibits a "my way, or the highway" attitude concerning this, then what is there to talk about?
 
j-mac said:
When Obama exhibits a "my way, or the highway" attitude concerning this, then what is there to talk about?
Click to expand...

Again, this whining is due to the oppositions spoiled hissy fit where they compromise on nothing and want everything including obama's resignation before they vote for anything. Sorry, but had the reps actually did something without being forced into a corner Obama would not have to force them into a corner. Don't worry, your guys will cave for the same reason they caved on the debt ceiling. It is their loss and they are holding their own wealth hostage. it is a stupid idea when you have made everyone either poor or rich to hold wealth hostage like that.

The only thing this means is that next election people will still be pissed off with the spoiled child antics of the right wing and the right will continue to lose seats or run people who will actually compromise and want to help america.
 
tererun said:
Again, this whining is due to the oppositions spoiled hissy fit where they compromise on nothing and want everything including obama's resignation before they vote for anything. Sorry, but had the reps actually did something without being forced into a corner Obama would not have to force them into a corner. Don't worry, your guys will cave for the same reason they caved on the debt ceiling. It is their loss and they are holding their own wealth hostage. it is a stupid idea when you have made everyone either poor or rich to hold wealth hostage like that.

The only thing this means is that next election people will still be pissed off with the spoiled child antics of the right wing and the right will continue to lose seats or run people who will actually compromise and want to help america.
Click to expand...


Wow, all I can say is wow....That is some convoluted thinking you have there....good luck with that. Oh, and the sunny disposition in relating your ideas is going to win over opponents to your way of thinking as well...Don't change a thing....:roll:
 
j-mac said:
Wow, all I can say is wow....That is some convoluted thinking you have there....good luck with that. Oh, and the sunny disposition in relating your ideas is going to win over opponents to your way of thinking as well...Don't change a thing....:roll:
Click to expand...

Oh, is that all you have is insults? no actual reason why it is wrong, just spouting BS? Oh, and please don't change a thing yourself. After the complete failure of the GOP in this last election i don't see any reason i have to change a thing, but your guys can either fade into obscurity or put some people in office who are not spoiled little children. obama seems just as sick of their crap as most other people. Even your own party has tried to fit norquist under the bus with romney and rove. you know your party is fail, and that is why all you have is insults and blather.
 
j-mac said:
When Obama exhibits a "my way, or the highway" attitude concerning this, then what is there to talk about?
Click to expand...

Well, first, you weren't bitching about this with Bush. So, that alone makes your complaint laughable. However, again, they are grown ups with a job to do. They can return fire, and if they can't , we should elect better people.
 
tererun said:
Again, this whining is due to the oppositions spoiled hissy fit where they compromise on nothing and want everything including obama's resignation before they vote for anything.
Click to expand...

That is simply untrue. Whether you characterize the oppositions objections as whining, or some other pejorative that stems from an anger filled heart makes no difference to the fact the GOP came to the table already conceding that upper level incomes would be on the table, using last times $800 Billion hike. What Repubs are saying is that cuts have to be there as well.

Sorry, but had the reps actually did something without being forced into a corner Obama would not have to force them into a corner.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's crap, not to mention a bit of projection.

Don't worry, your guys will cave for the same reason they caved on the debt ceiling.
Click to expand...

I don't have much faith in Boehner, so you may be at least partially right on that little part. But, if you want to talk caving, the last time this was at this point Obama, and the angry libs had much the same mantra, talking about 'tax cuts for the rich' and all', when in the end they were supposed to have come to a deal, when Obama stepped in the next day and tried to double the amount of increase toward the upper incomes. Then Obama, and the libs gave this speech where he spouted that in a time of recession was not time to raise taxes on anyone, so Obama extended the rates for everyone....Hmmm....That to me was Obama caving....Now, it is clear that liberals don't give a tinkers damn what raising taxes would do to the economy, they just want so badly to stick it to the so called rich. Now at that time the economy was growing twice as fast as it is now, so if it wasn't a good idea then, why is it now?

It's $80 Billion. That will fund the government for 8 days...It is insignificant. Entitlement reform is what needs to be done here.

It is their loss and they are holding their own wealth hostage. it is a stupid idea when you have made everyone either poor or rich to hold wealth hostage like that.
Click to expand...

No, It is the American people that lose here, by being unserved by an overly ideological President, and caucus in congress that absolutely do not understand basic economics, but rather want to use their office to punish whom they don't like, and do nothing to change the course that got us here.

The only thing this means is that next election people will still be pissed off with the spoiled child antics of the right wing and the right will continue to lose seats or run people who will actually compromise and want to help america.
Click to expand...

Good grief, the election is all of 5 minutes old. Can we not start running the next one until after the swearing in ceremony in Jan please....
 
Boo Radley said:
Well, first, you weren't bitching about this with Bush.
Click to expand...

This isn't about Bush Joe....Let's talk in the here and now can we?

So, that alone makes your complaint laughable.
Click to expand...

No, what's laughable Joe, is for Boehner to come to the table with $800 billion in tax hikes, asking that entitlements be looked at, and what was the answer to that? Not only no, but instead he wants to INCREASE spending with another stimulus, and he wants the congressional constitutional authority stripped away from congress on debt ceiling, and given to him....That is not a serious proposal.

However, again, they are grown ups with a job to do.
Click to expand...

Then liberals should start acting like it. Look, Republicans in congress were elected, and increased in the house as well. And CONGRESS holds the strings of the purse. NOT Obama. I agree with this....

Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich says the so-called fiscal cliff is a "fantasy" being used as "an excuse to panic," and he is urging Republicans "to get a grip" on negotiations with President Barack Obama.

The Georgia Republican made the comments Wednesday night at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library in California, according to the Ventura County Star.

The newspaper reported that Gingrich described the crisis-like atmosphere of the budget negotiations as "a device to get all of us running down the road so we accept whatever Obama wants.


Read more: Gingrich: 'Fiscal Cliff Is a Fantasy'
Click to expand...

This is a manufactured crisis. The house should tell Obama that they are willing to snap shut the checkbook, and not talk about a damned thing until The President, and liberals start showing a little respect in negotiating, and get realistic.

They can return fire, and if they can't , we should elect better people.
Click to expand...

Good, then place the Ryan Budget on the table, and put the ball back on Obama....If that isn't good enough, or if Obama continues to bargain in bad faith, pull up stakes and close the checkbook until Obama and liberals realize who runs the purse in DC.
 
j-mac said:
This isn't about Bush Joe....Let's talk in the here and now can we?



No, what's laughable Joe, is for Boehner to come to the table with $800 billion in tax hikes, asking that entitlements be looked at, and what was the answer to that? Not only no, but instead he wants to INCREASE spending with another stimulus, and he wants the congressional constitutional authority stripped away from congress on debt ceiling, and given to him....That is not a serious proposal.



Then liberals should start acting like it. Look, Republicans in congress were elected, and increased in the house as well. And CONGRESS holds the strings of the purse. NOT Obama. I agree with this....



This is a manufactured crisis. The house should tell Obama that they are willing to snap shut the checkbook, and not talk about a damned thing until The President, and liberals start showing a little respect in negotiating, and get realistic.



Good, then place the Ryan Budget on the table, and put the ball back on Obama....If that isn't good enough, or if Obama continues to bargain in bad faith, pull up stakes and close the checkbook until Obama and liberals realize who runs the purse in DC.
Click to expand...

No one said it was about Bush. I know you think you can dismiss a point about you because Bush's name was mentioned? That's funny.

Both sides should start acting like adults, and you should stop making excuses for republicans.

And while I agree we can survive the cliff, both sides manufactured the crisis. Both sides use it to their advantage. And both sides have the option of letting us go over the cliff.

Yes, republicans can put up any proposal they please, and I'm fine with it. But stop pretending poor, poor republicans have been spending all these years as the only party negotiating in good faith. Try to recognize the silliness goes both ways.
 
Both houses passed the extension and created the cliff. The President signed it.

Bring on this fictitious cliff and when the same disagreements don't increase the debt limit, they will surely cut spending.

If something bad happens, then it will be just another piece of legislation that did not anticipate the consequences which will have to be fixed again and again.
 
j-mac said:
When Obama exhibits a "my way, or the highway" attitude concerning this, then what is there to talk about?
Click to expand...

How is Obama doing this, though? He put forward a proposal that was shot down by Republicans, and is now waiting for Republicans to put an alternative on the table. He's literally asking them to come up with something; how is demanding the other side of a negotiation come up with an alternative on which to negotiate, refusing to negotiate?

j-mac said:
That is simply untrue. Whether you characterize the oppositions objections as whining, or some other pejorative that stems from an anger filled heart makes no difference to the fact the GOP came to the table already conceding that upper level incomes would be on the table, using last times $800 Billion hike. What Repubs are saying is that cuts have to be there as well.
Click to expand...

Okay, which cuts? Obama is not rejecting spending cuts, he is asking Republicans to lay out exactly what they want to cut. And they won't do that. Why do you think that is?

The GOP really put themselves in a bad position. They put all their chips on Romney winning the election, with no alternative plan if Obama won a second term. Well, here we are with Obama getting a second term, and with Republicans whining about how they want cuts, but not specifying what they want to cut. All the while the clock ticks down, and we come closer every day to going over the cliff. Polls show that the vast majority of people would blame Republicans if that happens, so why are they balking? Because they're caught between a rock and a hard place: both choices - offering up specific spending cuts and going off the cliff - are political suicide to Republicans, so they're trying to stall until they can come up with, well, something? I don't see how anyone could stand behind such a position; if I was a Republican I'd be up in arms over this.

Looks like 2014 is going to be a good year for Democrats.
 
Last edited:
Khayembii Communique said:
How is Obama doing this, though? He put forward a proposal that was shot down by Republicans, and is now waiting for Republicans to put an alternative on the table. He's literally asking them to come up with something; how is demanding the other side of a negotiation come up with an alternative on which to negotiate, refusing to negotiate?



Okay, which cuts? Obama is not rejecting spending cuts, he is asking Republicans to lay out exactly what they want to cut. And they won't do that. Why do you think that is?

The GOP really put themselves in a bad position. They put all their chips on Romney winning the election, with no alternative plan if Obama won a second term. Well, here we are with Obama getting a second term, and with Republicans whining about how they want cuts, but not specifying what they want to cut. All the while the clock ticks down, and we come closer every day to going over the cliff. Polls show that the vast majority of people would blame Republicans if that happens, so why are they balking? Because they're caught between a rock and a hard place: both choices - offering up specific spending cuts and going off the cliff - are political suicide to Republicans, so they're trying to stall until they can come up with, well, something? Looks like 2014 is going to be a good year for Democrats.
Click to expand...

That is a clever "interpretation" but what do you call the House budget or the "Ryan plan"? These are not only "plans" but actually written as bills that simply need to get to the Senate floor after inserting the original $750-$800 in new tax revenue. Perhaps if the president, aka the demorat leader, would actually lead instead of simply coming up with half baked demands, then immediately changing them if they get accepted, things would proceed faster. Obama is playing a dangerous game, having tricked the republicants into shifting the "fiscal year" until after the November elections, instead of having dealt with these budget matters on time in August.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
That is a clever "interpretation" but what do you call the House budget or the "Ryan plan"? These are not only "plans" but actually written as bills that simply need to get to the Senate floor after inserting the original $750-$800 in new tax revenue. Perhaps if the president, aka the demorat leader, would actually lead instead of simply coming up with half baked demands, then immediately changing them if they get accepted, things would proceed faster. Obama is playing a dangerous game, having tricked the republicants into shifting the "fiscal year" until after the November elections, instead of having dealt with these budget matters on time in August.
Click to expand...

The House budget and Ryan plans are not being put forward as options by the Republicans, so I am not sure why you are referencing these dated pieces of legislation. You get some references every once in a while from a Republican about Bowles-Simpson, but this is not being put forward as an official negotiating proposal by the Republicans, either. So far Boehner has not offered any kind of plan; he just references the need for "spending cuts" without explaining what that means. And if he doesn't specify before we go over the cliff he's going to be the one the American people blame, not Obama. This is proven by polling.

The Republicans don't want to put forward a proposal with specific spending cuts because, to be quite blunt, they don't even want to cut spending that much. They attack government spending in the abstract, but just a few months ago the Romney/Ryan campaign was attacking Obama for cutting Medicare spending. They don't want to specify specific spending cuts, but now they have to. They're in a lose-lose situation.

Obama didn't trick the Republicans; both sides agreed on it knowing full well the consequences. The Republicans merely put all their chips on a Romney victory.
 
Khayembii Communique said:
The House budget and Ryan plans are not being put forward as options by the Republicans, so I am not sure why you are referencing these dated pieces of legislation. You get some references every once in a while from a Republican about Bowles-Simpson, but this is not being put forward as an official negotiating proposal by the Republicans, either. So far Boehner has not offered any kind of plan; he just references the need for "spending cuts" without explaining what that means. And if he doesn't specify before we go over the cliff he's going to be the one the American people blame, not Obama. This is proven by polling.

The Republicans don't want to put forward a proposal with specific spending cuts because, to be quite blunt, they don't even want to cut spending that much. They attack government spending in the abstract, but just a few months ago the Romney/Ryan campaign was attacking Obama for cutting Medicare spending. They don't want to specify specific spending cuts, but now they have to. They're in a lose-lose situation.

Obama didn't trick the Republicans; both sides agreed on it knowing full well the consequences. The Republicans merely put all their chips on a Romney victory.
Click to expand...

Are you kidding me? What more "put forward" can something be than a bill already passed by the House?
 
Khayembii Communique said:
How is Obama doing this, though? He put forward a proposal that was shot down by Republicans, and is now waiting for Republicans to put an alternative on the table. He's literally asking them to come up with something; how is demanding the other side of a negotiation come up with an alternative on which to negotiate, refusing to negotiate?
Click to expand...

The GOP has put forth a proposal that includes "revenues"--their sacred cow; and Obam responded with one involving no meaningful cuts. The WH thinks because the polls say the GOP looks bad he can get what he wants. The GOP is used to looking bad in polls, so it isn't going to matter as much as he apparently thinks. We will be going over the fiscal pothole called a cliff if Obama does not come up with his cuts. It is that simple. It is 2 years to the mid-terms, the GOP has plenty of time to save face.
 
Fisher said:
The GOP has put forth a proposal that includes "revenues"--their sacred cow; and Obam responded with one involving no meaningful cuts. The WH thinks because the polls say the GOP looks bad he can get what he wants. The GOP is used to looking bad in polls, so it isn't going to matter as much as he apparently thinks. We will be going over the fiscal pothole called a cliff if Obama does not come up with his cuts. It is that simple. It is 2 years to the mid-terms, the GOP has plenty of time to save face.
Click to expand...

His proposal offered ~$400 billion in spending cuts. The Republicans rejected this. If they want cuts and reject this plan, then they should specify how much they want cut and from where those cuts will come.

And you're right, of course Obama is able to do this because he is in a very good position politically. But that really is neither here nor there. If you think that Republicans laying out what they want cut is "Obama getting what he wants" then you have already concluded that there shouldn't be any negotiation at all, that the Republicans should back out of any attempt at negotiating, and that we should all willingly go over the cliff.

Of course, this, as I said earlier, would be political suicide for the Republicans, as they would expose themselves as throwing the country under the bus for their own petty squabbles.
 
Fisher said:
One of my brothers is a factory worker who makes between $50-$60K a year. He said that several people he knew who worked there awhile had 401k's well over a million dollars because they put a lot into what were previously high risk high return funds that were investing in factories being built in China and other places in Asia 10-15 years ago. I'd say they are safe investments now. It is ironic, however, that the dems are targeting them under the auspice they got rich off the backs of poor American workers when they are the poor downtrodden workers supposedly being defended against the capitalist swarm.
Click to expand...


The progressives, (not unlike commies) can't come right out and tell you that its raining when they're pissing on your leg, silly. Democrats, and these include most young ladies, the new latino block, and of course the blacks, have routinly fell for this stuff, and I blame republicans in the house and states for not being able to articulate in laymans terms what and how progressives of the Alinsky type actually work. They don't nail you all at once, they take bites, and even nibbles, but they get the worm in the end. Sorry for all the cliches but it seems most don't or cannot comprehend a sinister government run by cloaked suspects unless it's put in neat little terms they can understand. With black people in the USA the technique is so well understood that to this day the blacks STILL think the democrats are in their corner.. :)


Tim-
 
Khayembii Communique said:
You are the only one arguing this. Can you find Boehner arguing it in the past two months? Good luck.
Click to expand...

OK, we both have no "new" specifics, as the $400 billion in net "Obama" cuts are theoretical as well. :)

The bottom line is that Obama wants tax increases at 4:1 to spending cuts, a no go.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
OK, we both have no "new" specifics, as the $400 billion in net "Obama" cuts are theoretical as well. :)

The bottom line is that Obama wants tax increases at 4:1 to spending cuts, a no go.
Click to expand...

Even if the spending cuts are "theoretical", that is completely beside the point. Obama could offer a plan with absolutely zero cuts, and if the Republicans disagree with it then they should put forward their own proposal of how much to cut and from where they'd like to do so. Saying "NO" and throwing a temper tantrum is not negotiating. Obama put forward a proposal, and now it is time for the Republicans to reply with their own.
 
Khayembii Communique said:
Even if the spending cuts are "theoretical", that is completely beside the point. Obama could offer a plan with absolutely zero cuts, and if the Republicans disagree with it then they should put forward their own proposal of how much to cut and from where they'd like to do so. Saying "NO" and throwing a temper tantrum is not negotiating. Obama put forward a proposal, and now it is time for the Republicans to reply with their own.
Click to expand...

Agreed. :)
 
tererun said:
Again, this whining is due to the oppositions spoiled hissy fit where they compromise on nothing and want everything including obama's resignation before they vote for anything. Sorry, but had the reps actually did something without being forced into a corner Obama would not have to force them into a corner. Don't worry, your guys will cave for the same reason they caved on the debt ceiling. It is their loss and they are holding their own wealth hostage. it is a stupid idea when you have made everyone either poor or rich to hold wealth hostage like that.

The only thing this means is that next election people will still be pissed off with the spoiled child antics of the right wing and the right will continue to lose seats or run people who will actually compromise and want to help america.
Click to expand...


I have read through the details of Obama's proposal. The meat of it seems to be that he wants an additional 1.6 trillion in revenue over the next ten years and for that he has offered 400 billion in yet-to-be-determined cuts in medicare. In addition, he is also seeking an immediate 50 billion in "stimulus". So then, by my math that comes out to 1.6 trillion in new taxes in exchange for 400 billion in *potential* cuts which would then be offset by 50 billion in new spending? And to cap it all off he is also asking congress to cede to the White House it's authority to regulate the debt ceiling.

Could you point me to the part where Obama is "compromising"?
 
Khayembii Communique said:
His proposal offered ~$400 billion in spending cuts. The Republicans rejected this. If they want cuts and reject this plan, then they should specify how much they want cut and from where those cuts will come.

And you're right, of course Obama is able to do this because he is in a very good position politically. But that really is neither here nor there. If you think that Republicans laying out what they want cut is "Obama getting what he wants" then you have already concluded that there shouldn't be any negotiation at all, that the Republicans should back out of any attempt at negotiating, and that we should all willingly go over the cliff.

Of course, this, as I said earlier, would be political suicide for the Republicans, as they would expose themselves as throwing the country under the bus for their own petty squabbles.
Click to expand...


It is not political suicide. In case you did not notice, the GOP just retained the House so pleasing people who did not vote for them is not their main goal. These were not new cuts Obama proposes. He is trying to recycle the savings Obamacare is already supposed to bring (allegedly) into this. Obama is not in as good of a position as the WH thinks he is. Perhaps if Obama proposed a new cut that is not already in the works, then they will think he is sincere. I really have no problem going over the fiscal pothole if it comes to it, but the GOP offered him a deal to put this thing off to negotiate a comprehensive package and Obama said no. The only reason Obama would logically not agree to that is if he has no intent of giving the GOP anything.
 
With the Republican "counter offer" now out it is quite clear that they have no intention of clarifying anything. Their revenue from "closing loopholes" doesn't specify which loopholes would be closed and their proposed cuts simply don't add up. They're continuing to obfuscate.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom