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‘Fiscal Cliff’ Could Put Millions of Taxpayers Into ‘AMT Shock’ [W:66]

Both parties are playing chicken with our economy. Sadly with the slim margin of error the only thing new are the consequences.

I am on the side of the GOP in terms of having to have the cuts before we raise taxes in a recession. I think the extension until a detailed agreement can be found is the best we can do and Obama has said no because he thinks he can extort them out of what he wants without giving up anything. I would rather the automatic cuts were across the board to all departments and agencies, but in the end, they need to go through it line by line and come up with a budget not some half-ass patch.
 
So do you think that the government should get more or less involved? Should the government be financing your gains? Maybe most supplemental structures be completely managed by their owners? Taxes were already paid. That way, the government would have no say at all.

Just postulating here....



The whole point of tax deferrment is to build up interest while you are working for retirement. It becomes income after you draw on it. A deferred account has the ability of accumulating more money with lower interest rates because the taxes come at the back end. So 4 percent is four percent, whereas you lose some returns in non qualified portfolios. Now, there were for a time ROIs of 13 and 14 percent, right now most plans are down BUT in an up market they will start producing better returns again. Under this bond lock down suggested you are in the program, period, you'll never make more or less on your money and you have no control over it. There are still retirement accounts producing good returns.

The U.S. government has no business in financials, none, SS is 1% and realistically that is inflated, there is no actual money left in the trust, it's been gutted so the return is pretty much created off worker contributions. Sad thing is it operates just like a Ponzi scheme but has less than a fraction of the returns. That 3% is pathetic, again, you can get 4% in most stuff out there now, though some have dropped to 1.5 and 2.

Think about this though, is that 3% really that great a deal if you cannot control your money, if you are in treasury bills with the debt we hold now versus the value of the dollar? Is that long term, where you couldn't move money into a high risk fund for a while in a good market worth it? Do you really want Washington incompetents messing with your future?
 
To be honest though, I don't think most people can be trusted to save money or wisely mange their investments. No disrespect to my fellow humans but most of you seem to buy a lot of **** on credit. That alone proves something or the other.

I'll be absolutely astonished if this event horizon occurs but ANYTHING is possible from your nation capitol.

If the government doesn't force you to save, you'll too likely end up on my dime. Too bad they keep damaging the value of your savings.




The whole point of tax deferrment is to build up interest while you are working for retirement. It becomes income after you draw on it. A deferred account has the ability of accumulatin

g more money with lower interest rates because the taxes come at the back end. So 4 percent is four percent, whereas you lose some returns in non qualified portfolios. Now, there were for a time ROIs of 13 and 14 percent, right now most plans are down BUT in an up market they will start producing better returns again. Under this bond lock down suggested you are in the program, period, you'll never make more or less on your money and you have no control over it. There are still retirement accounts producing good returns.

The U.S. government has no business in financials, none, SS is 1% and realistically that is inflated, there is no actual money left in the trust, it's been gutted so the return is pretty much created off worker contributions. Sad thing is it operates just like a Ponzi scheme but has less than a fraction of the returns. That 3% is pathetic, again, you can get 4% in most stuff out there now, though some have dropped to 1.5 and 2.

Think about this though, is that 3% really that great a deal if you cannot control your money, if you are in treasury bills with the debt we hold now versus the value of the dollar? Is that long term, where you couldn't move money into a high risk fund for a while in a good market worth it? Do you really want Washington incompetents messing with your future?
 
So do you think that the government should get more or less involved? Should the government be financing your gains? Maybe most supplemental structures be completely managed by their owners? Taxes were already paid. That way, the government would have no say at all.

Just postulating here....
Here's the thing. If there wasn't such a complicated tax code there wouldn't be needs for deferred vehicles, that said the government needs to be way less involved. The only business the government should have is over criminal activity, not trying to raid pension vehicles for the money contained in them. There are tons of professionals who know how to produce a successful retirement portfolio, this latest idea gets between those pros and their clients, and it's at the expense of the client's best interests.
 
I am on the side of the GOP in terms of having to have the cuts before we raise taxes in a recession. I think the extension until a detailed agreement can be found is the best we can do and Obama has said no because he thinks he can extort them out of what he wants without giving up anything. I would rather the automatic cuts were across the board to all departments and agencies, but in the end, they need to go through it line by line and come up with a budget not some half-ass patch.

i and others who believe like me, have for years said, ----->we are willing to pay more in taxes.

we have no problem doing it, if government uses the extra taxes to pay down the debt.

but i refuse to pay more taxes, and government increase its spending, and the debt grow larger.

Americans love their nation and want to see it grow, and thrive, but we don't want to see, government wasting our money, and then tell us" your evil and greedy, and want to hurt the poor.

this is what many of the people i talk to don't like.
 
I am on the side of the GOP in terms of having to have the cuts before we raise taxes in a recession.
Absolutely right. Along with that if there are increases there needs to be a sunset to an agreed upon rate. The federal needs to figure out exactly how long taxes need to increase and what rate, no rhetoric but actual numbers that can be checked for accuracy, if they are wrong they don't get to extend the rates. And taxes should be off the table until spending is cut and that means all inefficiencies.
I think the extension until a detailed agreement can be found is the best we can do and Obama has said no because he thinks he can extort them out of what he wants without giving up anything. I would rather the automatic cuts were across the board to all departments and agencies, but in the end, they need to go through it line by line and come up with a budget not some half-ass patch.
Agree in full.
 
To be honest though, I don't think most people can be trusted to save money or wisely mange their investments. No disrespect to my fellow humans but most of you seem to buy a lot of **** on credit. That alone proves something or the other.

I'll be absolutely astonished if this event horizon occurs but ANYTHING is possible from your nation capitol.

If the government doesn't force you to save, you'll too likely end up on my dime. Too bad they keep damaging the value of your savings.
All this is assumptive. People feel they don't have to save money because of mandated retirement programs like SS, they don't realize it could bankrupt, it could be trimmed down, and the age could be increased. Government taking peoples' retirement accounts to sell bonds will not do anything but throw those retirement dollars into the government, they actually in the long run will cost people retirement money, and insure less quality of life in later years. Now, the retirement planning problem is specifically created through the mentality that government officials can guarantee success, when in reality most of those people haven't ever had any successes outside of government. In other words, incompetence created the retirement situation and incompetents are further adding to the problem.
 
Well, nobody agrees more that our tax code needs to be erased and rewritten in less than 50 pages. The gasping sound you are hearing is me trying to hold my breath:)

A majority of the population doesn't know a client from a professional. They have very little money. All of them are in debt. The smaller group of highly succesful but not ostentatious has much more than their 401K or IRA does. They just have them for the tax deferral.

So, what do you suggest that makes sense for everyone (even if it inconveniences a few within reasonable limits)?



Here's the thing. If there wasn't such a complicated tax code there wouldn't be needs for deferred vehicles, that said the government needs to be way less involved. The only business the government should have is over criminal activity, not trying to raid pension vehicles for the money contained in them. There are tons of professionals who know how to produce a successful retirement portfolio, this latest idea gets between those pros and their clients, and it's at the expense of the client's best interests.
 
Oops. Crossed posts.

You answer some points but my question still is open? What would you do?



All this is assumptive. People feel they don't have to save money because of mandated retirement programs like SS, they don't realize it could bankrupt, it could be trimmed down, and the age could be increased. Government taking peoples' retirement accounts to sell bonds will not do anything but throw those retirement dollars into the government, they actually in the long run will cost people retirement money, and insure less quality of life in later years. Now, the retirement planning problem is specifically created through the mentality that government officials can guarantee success, when in reality most of those people haven't ever had any successes outside of government. In other words, incompetence created the retirement situation and incompetents are further adding to the problem.
 
Well, nobody agrees more that our tax code needs to be erased and rewritten in less than 50 pages. The gasping sound you are hearing is me trying to hold my breath:)

A majority of the population doesn't know a client from a professional. They have very little money. All of them are in debt. The smaller group of highly succesful but not ostentatious has much more than their 401K or IRA does. They just have them for the tax deferral.

So, what do you suggest that makes sense for everyone (even if it inconveniences a few within reasonable limits)?
First off, tell every single politician to shut it on the 401(k) grab. Next, find someone with a good track record in the financials market or watch your benefit offered plans like a hawk. Most professionals do a rollover using a specific formula tailored to risk tolerance and time available to build. There is conservative, moderate, and high risk. Pros know how to diversify and shift risks according to the economic factors to either preserve or grow the initial investment. That's the best I can do, people are on their own whether the government gets involved or not. Unfortunately government interference tends to cost people value in their retirement plans.
 
If by heroes you are referring to my grandparents who worked all their lives and paid into medicare only to have it threatened by the people they supported for office, then yes that would be them. They are lazy victims anyway. i mean 2 were army vets who came back and worked and worked full time and were loyal to their companies for full retirement. The other two were the lazy female type who raised kids while maintaining full time jobs for over 40 years. Those damned victims! Thn there are my parents who are just about to reach retirement age after working all of their lives and raising children. They seem to be wondering if they will ever get to retire if the republicans have their way. You don't even want to talk to those people about the joys of privatized health insurance. I don't think there is a single one of them that has not been cheated out of health care by those great insurance people they pay to cover their health care. It is just complaint after complaint about fighting the insurance companies to fix broken bones, remove cancerous tumors, and how after jumping through all the hoops for the health care they pay for the insurance company denies payment for treatments they approved time and time again. What do they expect after loyally paying their insurance and getting approval before any treatments or exams happen? One would think they would get the point that you pay health insurance for the fun of it.


That does not effect them that much now, but considering they may need them in the future to do things like eat despite working all their lives they seem to want it there. Don't ask me they are just silly about things like eating.
approval before any treatments or exams happen? One would think they would get the point that you pay health insurance for the fun of it.


Yeah, damned great grandchildren and grandchildren wanting to do things like eat at school. Thopse damned lazy victims. The oldest is in first grade, and it is time for him to get a job.


Seriously, what do you have against old people who built this country anyway? They actually worked all their lives building things like utilities, roads, teaching, and even having their own businesses. What is your problem with them anyway?

Then stop voting to give illegal aliens benefits they never paid for. My parents have never had the issues with their insurance that you describe.
 
Then stop voting to give illegal aliens benefits they never paid for.

Funny, in all the things I've voted for, I've never seen the "give illegal alien benefits they never paid for" selection on my ballot. Would you care to be more specific, or is your foaming partisan rhant just hot air?

My parents have never had the issues with their insurance that you describe.

Oh well since your parents never had those issues, I guess they don't exist right?
 
Not confiscating. Just taxing. Right?

Nope just supplying articles for perusal on the subject. Me I think it be taxing FIRST taking SECOND. Thats me of course.
 
Funny, in all the things I've voted for, I've never seen the "give illegal alien benefits they never paid for" selection on my ballot. Would you care to be more specific, or is your foaming partisan rhant just hot air?



Oh well since your parents never had those issues, I guess they don't exist right?

Your representatives do. Since my parents haven't had those issues, it probably means that many others haven't either, meaning the problem isn't the rule.
 
Your representatives do. Since my parents haven't had those issues, it probably means that many others haven't either, meaning the problem isn't the rule.

You tried to accuse someone of voting for it. I guess since you voted for Bush twice you voted for more debt.

Btw jus cause YOUR parents didn't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
 
Your representatives do. Since my parents haven't had those issues, it probably means that many others haven't either, meaning the problem isn't the rule.

You tried to accuse someone of voting for it. I guess since you voted for Bush twice you voted for more debt.

Btw jus cause YOUR parents didn't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
 
Nope just supplying articles for perusal on the subject. Me I think it be taxing FIRST taking SECOND. Thats me of course.

That doesn't make sense to me. But I will read whatever you uncover.
 
That doesn't make sense to me. But I will read whatever you uncover.

Tell us what sense the latest proposal from Obama, given by 'tax cheat' Giethner was anything but a contemptuous, disdain filled, slap in the face toward Republican's?

Repub's should walk away.
 
They were just willing to put a lot into it apparently. In my area, the people who work at this particular plant have traditionally been paid about 2:1 to most blue-collar jobs in the area even when there were other big employers and people used to get production pay (not anymore though) beyond a certain amount where they could pick up a ton of bonus pay just by being solid consistent producers. Housing costs are pretty cheap too. My brother said he is too chicken to put money into some of the funds those guys still play because they will lose tons of money as easily as they make it and he doesn't have the guts to risk his entire retirement or even some of it. That was before the banking collapse, so they may be all broke for all I know now. It is not something I really have asked about in awhile He equated it to high-stakes poker though.

I think your brothers' co-workers are pulling his leg.

It doesn't matter much what they make or the cost of living in your area. The IRS caps 401(k) contributions at about $15K a year.
 
I think your brothers' co-workers are pulling his leg.

It doesn't matter much what they make or the cost of living in your area. The IRS caps 401(k) contributions at about $15K a year.

Maybe. Maybe they are SEP-IRA's or self-directed IRA's. IDK. He seemed to think they were legit. I have heard from other people there are some high-rollers working at that plant who were there on Day 1. Several were paid off a few years back to retire early because the newest employees are on a completely different wage/benefit plan than the older employees and it was cheaper in the long run just to throw anybody with seniority who wanted it $50K and whatever retirement benefits they have earned to walk away.
 
Tell us what sense the latest proposal from Obama, given by 'tax cheat' Giethner was anything but a contemptuous, disdain filled, slap in the face toward Republican's?

Repub's should walk away.

I think republicans are growth ass men, who have thrown a slap or three now and again. They can stand up come back with counter proposal, and a slap of their own if they think that will help. Poor fellows.
 
I think republicans are growth ass men, who have thrown a slap or three now and again. They can stand up come back with counter proposal, and a slap of their own if they think that will help. Poor fellows.


Their offer was on the table...Obama is a child. I say walk away, and let Obama and Demo's take total blame for their disastrous outcome.
 
Their offer was on the table...Obama is a child. I say walk away, and let Obama and Demo's take total blame for their disastrous outcome.

Oh please. We've watched republicans pout and obstruct for for years. We heard Bush tout his "capital" when he won a narrow election. So, this hyperbolic poor picked on republican act doesn't impress much.
 
Oh please. We've watched republicans pout and obstruct for for years. We heard Bush tout his "capital" when he won a narrow election. So, this hyperbolic poor picked on republican act doesn't impress much.


Obama's plan is a joke. Ryan offered a plan last time we were at this juncture, and Obama invited him to a speech where Ryan thought he was going to hear some kind of counter, and instead his plan was publicly mocked, and Ryan called 'un-American'....

Obama's budgets are a joke, and can't even get passed by Demo's in his own caucus...Then he mistakenly interprets a 2 or 3% victory as some kind of landslide mandate and spits out this kind of insulting proposal? Turn over congressional authority to oversee raising of the debt celling? Are you serious? Pfft....Nope, no, not nope, Hell NO!
 
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