‘Fiscal Cliff’ Could Put Millions of Taxpayers Into ‘AMT Shock’ [W:66]

One of the key questions lurking in the "fiscal cliff" talks — though well below the public's radar — is what happens to the alternative minimum tax — or AMT.Implemented in 1969 to make sure upper-income Americans pay their share of taxes, theAMT has increasingly snared more middle-income Americans over the years because it was never indexed for inflation.

During the 2011 tax year for example, the higher tax hit single taxpayers with incomes as low as $48,450 and joint filers making only $74,450.
But millions more Americans could be subject to the AMT in their 2012 returns if Congress fails to reach a deal on the fiscal cliff before year-end. That's because the AMT is currently scheduled to hit individuals making as little as $33,750 a year and joint filers making $45,000. (Read More: Complete Coverage of 'Fiscal Cliff')
"I call it AMT shock," Dick Hoey, chief economist at BNY Mellon, told CNBC recently.
"Normally some four million people pay the AMT," Hoey explained. "But if we don't fix this on the 2012 income, what's due in 2013 will be additional taxes by an extra 28 million households. If you're in the $75,000 to $300,000 income bracket, you can likely forget about a refund if they don't fix it."

‘Fiscal Cliff’ Could Put Millions of Taxpayers Into ‘AMT Shock’ - US Business News - CNBC

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This is maddening....No one is talking about actual tax reform, rather just lip service to the things that need to be done....

j-mac said:

This is maddening....No one is talking about actual tax reform, rather just lip service to the things that need to be done....

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Yea and now the jackasses are talking about stealing 401k's. Grrrr.

PirateMk1 said:

Yea and now the jackasses are talking about stealing 401k's. Grrrr.

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I heard that yesterday...That is part of the so called "wealth tax" right?

PirateMk1 said:

Yea and now the jackasses are talking about stealing 401k's. Grrrr.

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I have been pointing out that would happen in effect if a lot of people had their way to soak it to the rich anyway because the high dollar competition for a fixed number of profitable stocks is what drives up the value for everyday people's 401K's beyond what earnings alone justify. It deflates the stock prices. Taxing them will have the same effect.

j-mac said:

I heard that yesterday...That is part of the so called "wealth tax" right?

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All sorts of crap floating around. Turds in the punch bowl. If I remember correctly yes.

PirateMk1 said:

Yea and now the jackasses are talking about stealing 401k's. Grrrr.

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Stealing are taxing? I go to collect my 401 K and it's all gone? I doubt that, other than when the state goes broke and I lose it all together.

Boo Radley said:

Stealing are taxing? I go to collect my 401 K and it's all gone? I doubt that, other than when the state goes broke and I lose it all together.

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You set your account up in good faith, now the goverment is talking about taking it and putting into Social Security and just giving you a 3% return. That aint kosher no matter how you look at it.

PirateMk1 said:

You set your account up in good faith, now the goverment is talking about taking it and putting into Social Security and just giving you a 3% return. That aint kosher no matter how you look at it.

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I'll have to investigate it a little more. Do you have any links?

Boo Radley said:

I'll have to investigate it a little more. Do you have any links?

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Time and Life are supposed to do a write up on the proposal. I've got to go look it up. May be a bit I am getting ready to leave here in a bit.

PirateMk1 said:

Time and Life are supposed to do a write up on the proposal. I've got to go look it up. May be a bit I am getting ready to leave here in a bit.

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Not in a hurry, and later I may look as well. Just hate to speak when I'm not really sure of all the details.

j-mac said:

This is maddening....No one is talking about actual tax reform, rather just lip service to the things that need to be done....

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The Buffett Rulel is the alternative to the AMT. It would focus an AMT-like tax on only high-earners to prevent lower-income individuals from being sucked into the AMT due to a failure to update the paramaters for inflation. The problem is that we have people debating tax reform in our government who don't understand taxes or economics.

Boo Radley said:

Not in a hurry, and later I may look as well. Just hate to speak when I'm not really sure of all the details.

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I hear and apreaciate that brother, catch ya later.

JRog said:

The Buffett Rulel is the alternative to the AMT. It would focus an AMT-like tax on only high-earners to prevent lower-income individuals from being sucked into the AMT due to a failure to update the paramaters for inflation. The problem is that we have people debating tax reform in our government who don't understand taxes or economics.

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Buffet has an ulterior motive for his involvement in the propaganda.



This is theft of private property plain and simple, and unconstitutional.

However, that matters little to progressives right?

As a kind of bailout for bankrupt union retirement schemes, Democrats are considering yet another Constitution-trampling government takeover, this time, of private 401k retirement accounts.

The idea would be to create yet another entitlement program through which government would dictate the terms of everyone's retirement--while making it so difficult and costly to have a private 401k that everyone is forced into it.

Under Obama, the federal government has now illegally taken over the auto industry, the banks, housing, health care, student loans...and coming soon, apparently even private retirement accounts.

But don't worry. It's not like history is jam-packed full of warnings against continuously surrendering freedoms and nationalizing all power into the hands of the few.

Democrats eyeing 401k takeover - National Conservative | Examiner.com

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And then there is this interview....

Government Takeover of 401k? | Fox Business Video

It's not going to be on the up and up people.....This much like the Obamacare bill will be forced against the will of the people in the darkness of night.

One of my brothers is a factory worker who makes between $50-$60K a year. He said that several people he knew who worked there awhile had 401k's well over a million dollars because they put a lot into what were previously high risk high return funds that were investing in factories being built in China and other places in Asia 10-15 years ago. I'd say they are safe investments now. It is ironic, however, that the dems are targeting them under the auspice they got rich off the backs of poor American workers when they are the poor downtrodden workers supposedly being defended against the capitalist swarm.

The last thing you will hear is Nancy Pelosi saying we have to pass the bill to find out what is in it.

blaxshep said:

The last thing you will hear is Nancy Pelosi saying we have to pass the bill to find out what is in it.

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maybe not in those exact words again, but she is a shell game wordsmith for sure.

Fisher said:

One of my brothers is a factory worker who makes between $50-$60K a year. He said that several people he knew who worked there awhile had 401k's well over a million dollars because they put a lot into what were previously high risk high return funds that were investing in factories being built in China and other places in Asia 10-15 years ago. I'd say they are safe investments now. It is ironic, however, that the dems are targeting them under the auspice they got rich off the backs of poor American workers when they are the poor downtrodden workers supposedly being defended against the capitalist swarm.

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This is very rare, don't believe anyone who tells you this is common; especially people only making $60K/yr. <<< These people obviously are not raising families either.

PirateMk1 said:

You set your account up in good faith, now the goverment is talking about taking it and putting into Social Security and just giving you a 3% return. That aint kosher no matter how you look at it.

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That should be prosecuted as securities fraud. It would be if a private sector broker shifted a 401K into another vehicle against the best interests of the client.

OMG the republ;ican BS fear factory is at it again. We must stop the black president from raising taxes on the rich white people who do not even care about 99 percent of other white people as long as they don't pay taxes. Anyway, why is this fear unfounded for most of us?

Average income for full time employed people in the US is 39k (less for the 50 percent of us with a vagina). So this is not even a concern for most of us considering the lowest number they gave for having this tax is in the 48 thousand range. Now before the reps start saying average means over 50 percent of us might have trouble with this you need to understand the mathmatics of avergae, and if you are about to claim something like that you are not smart enough to be in this conversation. The reality is that most full time working americans fall below the average due to the rather large disparity between top incomes and the lowest incomes. So this is not a concern for most americans. For those of you who take the standard deduction and do not itemize this is not even a concern for you as you are already paying enough.

Who is this going to effect? People who make a lot of money and end up with huge deductions and pay little to no taxes. AKA the way more rich than you are. They want you to be afraid because the fiscal cliff is going to really hurt them. They want you to be as afraid as they are because their cliff is bigger than your small slope. So they grabbed a term only they are familiar with and are now shaking it in front of you claiming you will be horribly destroyed if you don't call up your senator in a panic and have a meltdown like they are. However, if you are actually worried do yourself a favor. Find your house reps contact info and anyone with an R next to their name call them up and tell them to quit screwing around and dump norquist and his insanity like the rest of the reps who want to be elected next term. If we get the budget there is no fiscal cliff to worry about and this doesn't mean a thing. Oh, and before the republicans bitch it is the job of congress to pass a budget. It is not their job to pitch another hissy fit because the black guy is still president. get on their ass and tell them to do their job or your state will find a person who can.

You republicans are really getting desperate. obama beat your ass and now has your people by the short and curleys. it is time to raise taxes on the rich. Most people do not know what AMT is because they never need to worry about it. They pay their share of taxes already. they don't have huge deductions they abuse. They don't write off millions of dollars in taxes like the rich do. What is worse is that most of you republicans are poor or lower middle class anyway. You are not rich. This will never apply to you because you will never be rich even with all the opportunities in america. Your money is yours. the black man is not going to redistribute it, and if he actually did redistribute you would get the money because you are not even close to being above that line.

So calm down, stop panicking, and relax. They will handle this before the cliff because it is their cliff. Why they set it up for themselves i will never understand, but they did. They will cave in because it is their loss and not ours. The people who are going to be hammered by this cliff are the rich. this is why the rich people in congress will never let it actually happen because they have so much to lose by this. It is their money, and they own all the big stuff in america. They won't sink it because they like their stuff. They are holding their stuff hostage. This is a bit of comedy done in blazing saddles where the sherrif holds himself hostage with his own gun and all the ignorant townspeople fall for it while the audience of intelligent people laughs. Only this time it is real life and house reps are holding themselves hostage and most of us are going shoot, we dare you.

j-mac said:

Buffet has an ulterior motive for his involvement in the propaganda.



This is theft of private property plain and simple, and unconstitutional.

However, that matters little to progressives right?



And then there is this interview....

Government Takeover of 401k? | Fox Business Video

It's not going to be on the up and up people.....This much like the Obamacare bill will be forced against the will of the people in the darkness of night.

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Somehow, when you trace the links back to the source, the source is different than what the links purport it to be.
Go figure.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/microsites/100226-annual-report-middle-class.pdf

This is not about race, short of one hyperbolic poster above.

OMG. Are you serious? Do you have a link about this?

While I don't have a 401K I know what they are and if the government grabs them I will be marching along with all the other victims.

More info appreciated.

PirateMk1 said:

You set your account up in good faith, now the goverment is talking about taking it and putting into Social Security and just giving you a 3% return. That aint kosher no matter how you look at it.

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Simon W. Moon said:

Somehow, when you trace the links back to the source, the source is different than what the links purport it to be.
Go figure.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/microsites/100226-annual-report-middle-class.pdf

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Could you explain the following parts for me?

"Update 401(k) Regulations to Improve Transparency and Reliability. A majority of American
workers rely on 401(k)-style plans to finance their retirements The Administration is proposing
new regulations to improve the transparency and adequacy of 401(k) retirement savings."

What new regulations?

"Promoting the availability of guaranteed lifetime income products, which transform at least a
portion of retirees’ savings into guaranteed future income, reducing the risks that retirees will
outlive their savings or that their living standards will be eroded by investment losses or inflation."

Hmmmm...Sounds like a take over to me....

"All workers, no matter their level of financial sophistication, should have access to well-diversified low-
cost investment options They should also have an easy way to put a portion of their savings in a safe,
inflation-protected investment choice While Treasury Inflation-Protected Securities (TIPS) and I Savings
Bonds offer this kind of protection today, many investors are unfamiliar with them or lack an easy way
to access these options in their retirement accounts To address this, some have suggested the creation
of Guaranteed Retirement Accounts (GRAs), which would give workers a simple way to invest a portion
of their retirement savings in an account that was free of inflation and market risk, and in some versions
under discussion, would guarantee a specified real return above the rate of inflation These accounts
would allow workers to be sure that the funds invested in them will grow steadily without the risk of a
market collapse."

Now come on, we are young, but we weren't born yesterday. We all know how progressives work, using baby steps to achieve their goals....This to me is not what I think most people want.

American said:

This is very rare, don't believe anyone who tells you this is common; especially people only making $60K/yr. <<< These people obviously are not raising families either.

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They were just willing to put a lot into it apparently. In my area, the people who work at this particular plant have traditionally been paid about 2:1 to most blue-collar jobs in the area even when there were other big employers and people used to get production pay (not anymore though) beyond a certain amount where they could pick up a ton of bonus pay just by being solid consistent producers. Housing costs are pretty cheap too. My brother said he is too chicken to put money into some of the funds those guys still play because they will lose tons of money as easily as they make it and he doesn't have the guts to risk his entire retirement or even some of it. That was before the banking collapse, so they may be all broke for all I know now. It is not something I really have asked about in awhile He equated it to high-stakes poker though.

With interest rates artificially low and "real world inflation" extremely high and a Federal Reserve trying to destroy the dollar enough to make paying debts easier for them, this isn't a very good idea.

j-mac said:

Could you explain the following parts for me?

"Update 401(k) Regulations to Improve Transparency and Reliability. A majority of American
workers rely on 401(k)-style plans to finance their retirements The Administration is proposing
new regulations to improve the transparency and adequacy of 401(k) retirement savings."

What new regulations?

"Promoting the availability of guaranteed lifetime income products, which transform at least a
portion of retirees’ savings into guaranteed future income, reducing the risks that retirees will
outlive their savings or that their living standards will be eroded by investment losses or inflation."

Hmmmm...Sounds like a take over to me....

"All workers, no matter their level of financial sophistication, should have access to well-diversified low-
cost investment options They should also have an easy way to put a portion of their savings in a safe,
inflation-protected investment choice While Treasury Inflation-Protected Securities (TIPS) and I Savings
Bonds offer this kind of protection today, many investors are unfamiliar with them or lack an easy way
to access these options in their retirement accounts To address this, some have suggested the creation
of Guaranteed Retirement Accounts (GRAs), which would give workers a simple way to invest a portion
of their retirement savings in an account that was free of inflation and market risk, and in some versions
under discussion, would guarantee a specified real return above the rate of inflation These accounts
would allow workers to be sure that the funds invested in them will grow steadily without the risk of a
market collapse."

Now come on, we are young, but we weren't born yesterday. We all know how progressives work, using baby steps to achieve their goals....This to me is not what I think most people want.

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