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Thread: ‘Fiscal Cliff’ Could Put Millions of Taxpayers Into ‘AMT Shock’ [W:66]

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    Re: ‘Fiscal Cliff’ Could Put Millions of Taxpayers Into ‘AMT Shock’ [W:66]

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    Even in the worst case version of this, you aren't forgoing your rights and control over your savings.

    The 401K is mostly about tax deferral. The ROTH IRA is a post-tax setup (I think).
    The whole point of tax deferrment is to build up interest while you are working for retirement. It becomes income after you draw on it. A deferred account has the ability of accumulating more money with lower interest rates because the taxes come at the back end. So 4 percent is four percent, whereas you lose some returns in non qualified portfolios. Now, there were for a time ROIs of 13 and 14 percent, right now most plans are down BUT in an up market they will start producing better returns again. Under this bond lock down suggested you are in the program, period, you'll never make more or less on your money and you have no control over it. There are still retirement accounts producing good returns.

    So, in the end, what if the USG got out of everything else (other than SS, a separate topic) and what we call a 401K is post-tax invested as you see fit?

    Just puzzling this out....I get SS but everything else I have is just savings and I get less than 1% on those. 3% sounds delicious anymore (sad, huh?).
    The U.S. government has no business in financials, none, SS is 1% and realistically that is inflated, there is no actual money left in the trust, it's been gutted so the return is pretty much created off worker contributions. Sad thing is it operates just like a Ponzi scheme but has less than a fraction of the returns. That 3% is pathetic, again, you can get 4% in most stuff out there now, though some have dropped to 1.5 and 2.

    Think about this though, is that 3% really that great a deal if you cannot control your money, if you are in treasury bills with the debt we hold now versus the value of the dollar? Is that long term, where you couldn't move money into a high risk fund for a while in a good market worth it? Do you really want Washington incompetents messing with your future?
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: ‘Fiscal Cliff’ Could Put Millions of Taxpayers Into ‘AMT Shock’ [W:66]

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    I get why it exists, and to a certain degree I agree with its premise, but it that can be solved by tax reform. And $33,000 is WAY too low. The necessarily shenanigans you need to get down to that level and still pay taxes after the AMT exemption is pretty absurd to the point where I doubt more then a handful of people are pulling this off. Having it hit such a low rate just makes regular folk have to deal with more crap. Taxes are already complicated. There is no reason to subject regular folks to having to do the AMT only to find out they are exempted by the large AMT exemption.
    I'm not a fan of the income tax structure to begin with, but that's a different topic completely. The AMT in premise is based on a certain bit of logic, that of making it harder to gain advantage through tax shelters, only problem is it creates a situation where honest tax payers end up with a larger tax bill than without it, and 33K is way too low, you're right, the shelter schemes tend to come from much higher brackets.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: ‘Fiscal Cliff’ Could Put Millions of Taxpayers Into ‘AMT Shock’ [W:66]

    Obama is quite possibly an idiot. Besides them having apparently spent the same alleged medicare savings a couple different times already, Congress is not going to abdicate control of spending limits to the WH or anyone else.....

    "Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner presented the House speaker, John A. Boehner, a detailed proposal on Thursday to avert the year-end fiscal crisis with $1.6 trillion in tax increases over 10 years, $50 billion in immediate stimulus spending, home mortgage refinancing and a permanent end to Congressional control over statutory borrowing limits.


    "The proposal, loaded with Democratic priorities and short on detailed spending cuts, met strong Republican resistance. In exchange for locking in the $1.6 trillion in added revenues, President Obama embraced the goal of finding $400 billion in savings from Medicare and other social programs to be worked out next year, with no guarantees.

    White House Plan on Fiscal Crisis Draws G.O.P. Ire - NYTimes.com

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    Re: ‘Fiscal Cliff’ Could Put Millions of Taxpayers Into ‘AMT Shock’ [W:66]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    Obama is quite possibly an idiot. Besides them having apparently spent the same alleged medicare savings a couple different times already, Congress is not going to abdicate control of spending limits to the WH or anyone else.....

    "Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner presented the House speaker, John A. Boehner, a detailed proposal on Thursday to avert the year-end fiscal crisis with $1.6 trillion in tax increases over 10 years, $50 billion in immediate stimulus spending, home mortgage refinancing and a permanent end to Congressional control over statutory borrowing limits.


    "The proposal, loaded with Democratic priorities and short on detailed spending cuts, met strong Republican resistance. In exchange for locking in the $1.6 trillion in added revenues, President Obama embraced the goal of finding $400 billion in savings from Medicare and other social programs to be worked out next year, with no guarantees.

    White House Plan on Fiscal Crisis Draws G.O.P. Ire - NYTimes.com
    Both parties are playing chicken with our economy. Sadly with the slim margin of error the only thing new are the consequences.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: ‘Fiscal Cliff’ Could Put Millions of Taxpayers Into ‘AMT Shock’ [W:66]

    i do have to say this idea, of the congress handing over its legislative power to the executive branch, so it can raise the debt ceiling anytime it wants to, is just an stake the obama admin wishes to drive into the constitution

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    Re: ‘Fiscal Cliff’ Could Put Millions of Taxpayers Into ‘AMT Shock’ [W:66]

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Both parties are playing chicken with our economy. Sadly with the slim margin of error the only thing new are the consequences.
    I am on the side of the GOP in terms of having to have the cuts before we raise taxes in a recession. I think the extension until a detailed agreement can be found is the best we can do and Obama has said no because he thinks he can extort them out of what he wants without giving up anything. I would rather the automatic cuts were across the board to all departments and agencies, but in the end, they need to go through it line by line and come up with a budget not some half-ass patch.

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    Re: ‘Fiscal Cliff’ Could Put Millions of Taxpayers Into ‘AMT Shock’ [W:66]

    So do you think that the government should get more or less involved? Should the government be financing your gains? Maybe most supplemental structures be completely managed by their owners? Taxes were already paid. That way, the government would have no say at all.

    Just postulating here....



    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    The whole point of tax deferrment is to build up interest while you are working for retirement. It becomes income after you draw on it. A deferred account has the ability of accumulating more money with lower interest rates because the taxes come at the back end. So 4 percent is four percent, whereas you lose some returns in non qualified portfolios. Now, there were for a time ROIs of 13 and 14 percent, right now most plans are down BUT in an up market they will start producing better returns again. Under this bond lock down suggested you are in the program, period, you'll never make more or less on your money and you have no control over it. There are still retirement accounts producing good returns.

    The U.S. government has no business in financials, none, SS is 1% and realistically that is inflated, there is no actual money left in the trust, it's been gutted so the return is pretty much created off worker contributions. Sad thing is it operates just like a Ponzi scheme but has less than a fraction of the returns. That 3% is pathetic, again, you can get 4% in most stuff out there now, though some have dropped to 1.5 and 2.

    Think about this though, is that 3% really that great a deal if you cannot control your money, if you are in treasury bills with the debt we hold now versus the value of the dollar? Is that long term, where you couldn't move money into a high risk fund for a while in a good market worth it? Do you really want Washington incompetents messing with your future?

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    Re: ‘Fiscal Cliff’ Could Put Millions of Taxpayers Into ‘AMT Shock’ [W:66]

    To be honest though, I don't think most people can be trusted to save money or wisely mange their investments. No disrespect to my fellow humans but most of you seem to buy a lot of **** on credit. That alone proves something or the other.

    I'll be absolutely astonished if this event horizon occurs but ANYTHING is possible from your nation capitol.

    If the government doesn't force you to save, you'll too likely end up on my dime. Too bad they keep damaging the value of your savings.




    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    The whole point of tax deferrment is to build up interest while you are working for retirement. It becomes income after you draw on it. A deferred account has the ability of accumulatin

    g more money with lower interest rates because the taxes come at the back end. So 4 percent is four percent, whereas you lose some returns in non qualified portfolios. Now, there were for a time ROIs of 13 and 14 percent, right now most plans are down BUT in an up market they will start producing better returns again. Under this bond lock down suggested you are in the program, period, you'll never make more or less on your money and you have no control over it. There are still retirement accounts producing good returns.

    The U.S. government has no business in financials, none, SS is 1% and realistically that is inflated, there is no actual money left in the trust, it's been gutted so the return is pretty much created off worker contributions. Sad thing is it operates just like a Ponzi scheme but has less than a fraction of the returns. That 3% is pathetic, again, you can get 4% in most stuff out there now, though some have dropped to 1.5 and 2.

    Think about this though, is that 3% really that great a deal if you cannot control your money, if you are in treasury bills with the debt we hold now versus the value of the dollar? Is that long term, where you couldn't move money into a high risk fund for a while in a good market worth it? Do you really want Washington incompetents messing with your future?

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    Re: ‘Fiscal Cliff’ Could Put Millions of Taxpayers Into ‘AMT Shock’ [W:66]

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    So do you think that the government should get more or less involved? Should the government be financing your gains? Maybe most supplemental structures be completely managed by their owners? Taxes were already paid. That way, the government would have no say at all.

    Just postulating here....
    Here's the thing. If there wasn't such a complicated tax code there wouldn't be needs for deferred vehicles, that said the government needs to be way less involved. The only business the government should have is over criminal activity, not trying to raid pension vehicles for the money contained in them. There are tons of professionals who know how to produce a successful retirement portfolio, this latest idea gets between those pros and their clients, and it's at the expense of the client's best interests.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: ‘Fiscal Cliff’ Could Put Millions of Taxpayers Into ‘AMT Shock’ [W:66]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    I am on the side of the GOP in terms of having to have the cuts before we raise taxes in a recession. I think the extension until a detailed agreement can be found is the best we can do and Obama has said no because he thinks he can extort them out of what he wants without giving up anything. I would rather the automatic cuts were across the board to all departments and agencies, but in the end, they need to go through it line by line and come up with a budget not some half-ass patch.
    i and others who believe like me, have for years said, ----->we are willing to pay more in taxes.

    we have no problem doing it, if government uses the extra taxes to pay down the debt.

    but i refuse to pay more taxes, and government increase its spending, and the debt grow larger.

    Americans love their nation and want to see it grow, and thrive, but we don't want to see, government wasting our money, and then tell us" your evil and greedy, and want to hurt the poor.

    this is what many of the people i talk to don't like.

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