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Thread: ‘Fiscal Cliff’ Could Put Millions of Taxpayers Into ‘AMT Shock’ [W:66]

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    re: ‘Fiscal Cliff’ Could Put Millions of Taxpayers Into ‘AMT Shock’ [W:66]

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    I didn't do to well in school. I had to go to summer school twice and I graduated with just over a 2 point. But to me, allowing someone the choice of doing something with their money is different than confiscating that money.
    Not if you force them through legal changes to do it or lose their ROI.

    I thought I did except for the part where it's supposed means confiscating people's 401ks. I am having trouble finding that section.
    Really? Right after she perjured herself stating there was a shrinkage in retirement planning she advocated for it. I read it right in her testimony.
    On what charges? Did you lie about the yield or something and thereby commit fraud? To me, selling someone something is different than fraud and is different than confiscating.
    Financial professionals have a legally binding fiduciary duty. If a complaintant can prove bad faith was exercised in replacing a plan there are fines, potential imprisonment, revocation of license, and possible civil lawsuits. In other words simply replacing one type of account for another to gain the selling party is ILLEGAL if the customer can incur a loss in finances or ROI.

    That may all be true.
    It is.

    Still doesn't seem to be confiscating 401ks.
    Oh sure, "Do it or we'll tax your gains away" is perfectly voluntary.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    re: ‘Fiscal Cliff’ Could Put Millions of Taxpayers Into ‘AMT Shock’ [W:66]

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    If someone chooses toput their money in a different vehicle, has it been confiscated? No.

    I don't think that a loss of tax benefits is the same as forcing. Obviously, ymmv.
    The govt still wouldn't be confiscating the 401ks.

    Really not the same thing, ****ing or otherwise.
    Nor is it the same thing as the govt seizing the accounts either.
    No, of course you don't see any of what I'm talking about. Nothing's wrong as long as a politician issues policy right? So if I told you, "invest in my product or I'll destroy your returns" or if I put a gun to your head and a pen in your hand it's perfectly fine, no coercion whatsoever. The government is advocating DESTROYING the ROI and advantages of retirement accounts UNLESS you go with their treasury bond scheme. Nothing wrong with that.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    re: ‘Fiscal Cliff’ Could Put Millions of Taxpayers Into ‘AMT Shock’ [W:66]

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Not if you force them through legal changes to do it or lose their ROI.
    There're all sorts of investment decisions which are made in part because of the legal structures we live with. But making those choices is still not the same thing as having your money confiscated.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Really? Right after she perjured herself stating there was a shrinkage in retirement planning she advocated for it. I read it right in her testimony.
    Like I said, theire are other tools in the shed which are sharper than me. It'd really help if you could quote the language in question so I could find it more easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Financial professionals have a legally binding fiduciary duty. If a complaintant can prove bad faith was exercised in replacing a plan there are fines, potential imprisonment, revocation of license, and possible civil lawsuits. In other words simply replacing one type of account for another to gain the selling party is ILLEGAL if the customer can incur a loss in finances or ROI.
    So you're talking about facing charges for giving intentionally bad advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Oh sure, "Do it or we'll tax your gains away" is perfectly voluntary.
    Still seems that the folks who put their money in the different vehcile would have their money. Iirc, when a govt actually DOES confiscate your wealth, you don't have it anymore.
    I may be wrong.

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    re: ‘Fiscal Cliff’ Could Put Millions of Taxpayers Into ‘AMT Shock’ [W:66]

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Nothing wrong with that.
    AFAICT, I never said that there was nothing wrong with it. I said that 401ks won't be confiscated.

    Don't people speak English anymore?
    I may be wrong.

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    re: ‘Fiscal Cliff’ Could Put Millions of Taxpayers Into ‘AMT Shock’ [W:66]

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    AFAICT, I never said that there was nothing wrong with it. I said that 401ks won't be confiscated.

    Don't people speak English anymore?
    Um, locked into the treasury bond scheme, and all benefits of retirement accounts stricken by law is confiscation. Difference is no one is putting a gun to your head, just threatening your property(ROI).
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    re: ‘Fiscal Cliff’ Could Put Millions of Taxpayers Into ‘AMT Shock’ [W:66]

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    Re: ‘Fiscal Cliff’ Could Put Millions of Taxpayers Into ‘AMT Shock’ [W:66]

    How the heck is the AMT at $33,000?

    Jesus. The AMT needs to die. It's an abomination.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: ‘Fiscal Cliff’ Could Put Millions of Taxpayers Into ‘AMT Shock’ [W:66]

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    How the heck is the AMT at $33,000?

    Jesus. The AMT needs to die. It's an abomination.
    Completely agree.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: ‘Fiscal Cliff’ Could Put Millions of Taxpayers Into ‘AMT Shock’ [W:66]

    Even in the worst case version of this, you aren't forgoing your rights and control over your savings.

    The 401K is mostly about tax deferral. The ROTH IRA is a post-tax setup (I think).

    So, in the end, what if the USG got out of everything else (other than SS, a separate topic) and what we call a 401K is post-tax invested as you see fit?

    Just puzzling this out....I get SS but everything else I have is just savings and I get less than 1% on those. 3% sounds delicious anymore (sad, huh?).


    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    It's THE worst idea. Anyone who takes the "guaranteed" three percent is locked into the scheme, there is no moving funds as you see fit, you forego your retirement planning decisions. Now, think about this, 1% return on SSI programs, 3% return on bonds, no other choices. You now have a combined 4% return, you can get that in an annuity, you can get that on a stock portfolio, and you can get that on a 401(k) in moderately bad markets. Not to mention if you stay active with your planner you can get better percentages when markets are good and go safe when things cool down, always making more for the fishing pole days. With this plan you get nothing of real value and no options.

    EDIT- the worst idea being the 401K grab. Mandatory savings are fine, but really do we want to further empower government morons to force people into their concepts of what's good for them. Plain and simple, the government is arrogant, run by idiots, and they are effecting real people. They need less power, not more programs and stupid ideas.

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    Re: ‘Fiscal Cliff’ Could Put Millions of Taxpayers Into ‘AMT Shock’ [W:66]

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Completely agree.
    I get why it exists, and to a certain degree I agree with its premise, but it that can be solved by tax reform. And $33,000 is WAY too low. The necessarily shenanigans you need to get down to that level and still pay taxes after the AMT exemption is pretty absurd to the point where I doubt more then a handful of people are pulling this off. Having it hit such a low rate just makes regular folk have to deal with more crap. Taxes are already complicated. There is no reason to subject regular folks to having to do the AMT only to find out they are exempted by the large AMT exemption.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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