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Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

No. Sexism would mean I hold an unfounded bias towards women, which isn't the case. It is a proven fact that most women are not as physically capable as most men. Again, I'm not doubting the mental ability of women to handle a combat MOS. I think they would do just fine in that aspect. Unfortunately for them, the military requires the physical ability to project that skill onto the battlefield, which most women lack.
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Unfortunately, you and I both know that this will never happen. It's just the way it is in our country. We'll see how it plays out.
Why? Why won't it ever happen? We can at least try.
 
In all of those cases, it wouldn't take long for those people to get fired.


All I'm saying is, I think a drill sergeant is a better judge on who can do what than a bureaucrat.

Kinda like the sex addicted Air Force trainesr that were abusing women for an extended period of time?
Air Force investigates growing sex-abuse scandal - The Washington Post
Also, in our PC military now, NO ONE would come up to Sgt Big Black Guy/Sgt Neo Nazi and say, "Hey, how come all of your "best" recruits look like you? Are you a racist?" Soon after, the individual that questioned him would be under investigation for an Equal Opportunity violation.
 
for those of you who have never been in the military, you do not have your normal natural rights under the constitution while you serve.

when you sign the paper to join our military, you give up your rights, and you accept, the uniform code of military justice... UCMJ, for your rights.

there is no free speech, secure in your person, as well as the others, you do as your told, when told to jump, you ask " how high"

so you dont have rights to fight in combat.

Of course. But the broad rules under which our military operates are written by our elected officials and we are talking about whether or not this particular one should be changed.
 
Why? Why won't it ever happen? We can at least try.
I agree with you bro. But it won't happen. As soon as the special interest groups see the amount of women that would be discharged/rejected outright for service they would say it isn't fair.
 
I agree with you bro. But it won't happen. As soon as the special interest groups see the amount of women that would be discharged/rejected outright for service they would say it isn't fair.
Yeah I guess that would be sort of unfair to them considering they are already in. I don't know, maybe I'm just being idealistic, but I feel even trying to get to that sort of equality is worth it in the long run. We gotta start somewhere.
 
Yeah I guess that would be sort of unfair to them considering they are already in. I don't know, maybe I'm just being idealistic, but I feel even trying to get to that sort of equality is worth it in the long run. We gotta start somewhere.

Well, I think the right thing to do would be to grandfather (mother? lol) them in. The Marine Corps has said that the new PFT policy will be optional in 2013 and fully implemented in 2014, so that gives them time to adhere to the policy. I think that's the most fair way to do it.
 
Well, I think the right thing to do would be to grandfather (mother? lol) them in. The Marine Corps has said that the new PFT policy will be optional in 2013 and fully implemented in 2014, so that gives them time to adhere to the policy. I think that's the most fair way to do it.
I guess that would make sense.
 
I hope they never end the ban on sending women into harms way....and my reasons are purely non discrimination in nature...more an old man who respects women and was raised to protect them and a father and grandfather and great grandfather of a whole bunch of girls and young women.
 
I hope they never end the ban on sending women into harms way....and my reasons are purely non discrimination in nature...more an old man who respects women and was raised to protect them and a father and grandfather and great grandfather of a whole bunch of girls and young women.

Whatever. That views a bunch of bull**** - men don't really care or they'd never fight a war in which all the weak incapable women were left home alone to fend for their selves. That view comes out when it backs up the unjust discrimination - it's not there *at all* whenever all other things are concerned.

I'm not weak and incapable and I don't need some mighty man to DECIDE I am so he can feel good about HIS ego and shelter me.

Your reason is pure discrimination . . . as it assumes the worst of us; weaker, inferior, incapable . . . even those who ARE NOT and don't need special provisions to prove so.

I just want those who ARE NOT to be in - and those who ARE to be out.

It's exhausting to still have to fight against such bull**** to prove I'm not some pathetic invalid. . . because honestly - that's what your view diminishes everyone down to. Men fight to prove they're capable, strong and able . . . women do, too. No man wants to be seen as being weak, pathetic, inferior - but some will impart that on women without a thought?

As a result - I'll flay my own flesh to avoid ever having to ask a man to help me with anything . . . I guess I just bristle at the idea of me being looked down on like I'm a lowly piece of **** just so he can puff up his ego and help me load bags of cement into my truck.
 
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Whatever. That views a bunch of bull**** - men don't really care or they'd never fight a war in which all the weak incapable women were left home alone to fend for their selves. That view comes out when it backs up the unjust discrimination - it's not there *at all* whenever all other things are concerned.

I'm not weak and incapable and I don't need some mighty man to DECIDE I am so he can feel good about HIS ego and shelter me.

Your reason is pure discrimination . . . as it assumes the worst of us; weaker, inferior, incapable . . . even those who ARE NOT and don't need special provisions to prove so.

I just want those who ARE NOT to be in - and those who ARE to be out.

It's exhausting to still have to fight against such bull**** to prove I'm not some pathetic invalid. . . because honestly - that's what your view diminishes everyone down to. Men fight to prove they're capable, strong and able . . . women do, too. No man wants to be seen as being weak, pathetic, inferior - but some will impart that on women without a thought?

As a result - I'll flay my own flesh to avoid ever having to ask a man to help me with anything . . . I guess I just bristle at the idea of me being looked down on like I'm a lowly piece of **** just so he can puff up his ego and help me load bags of cement into my truck.


Whats really BS is you trying to put your own spin on what my views are...I didnt say women were weak....know what your post is so full of bs that I wont even respond to every single point....but THANKFULLY most women accept and appreciate a man who is respectfull and shows the RESPECT by opening a door for them or offering to lift something for them or offering to help them...or pushing them behind him to PROTECT them...THANK GOD most women see that for what it truly is...and do not have a female wrestler attitude "HEY" fu I dont need you punk...Ill body slam you.
Your position I find ridiculous Aunt Spiker and the way you went off and spun a simple statement....If you think women being placed in combat SOMEHOW makes them equal to men in all ways your cracked...Theres a whole variety of issues that are unique to women...like having babies and being mothers for one....like this or not Auntie women as a rule are WEAKER than men physically and you can want that pushed under the rug all you want...doesnt change that fact that it is 100% true...
I was raised to respect women and to protect them and thats what ive done MY ENTIRE LIFE and in all those years there was only a couple of incidents of where I ran into a feminazi...that wanted to bite my head off...Im not changing what I believe in or what I am for a handful of women that want to be considered IDENTICAL to men....your not, you never were and you never will be...thats a physiological fact...now you can take that up with god or evolution because I cant change that for you.
 
Whats really BS is you trying to put your own spin on what my views are...I didnt say women were weak....know what your post is so full of bs that I wont even respond to every single point....but THANKFULLY most women accept and appreciate a man who is respectfull and shows the RESPECT by opening a door for them or offering to lift something for them or offering to help them...or pushing them behind him to PROTECT them...THANK GOD most women see that for what it truly is...and do not have a female wrestler attitude "HEY" fu I dont need you punk...Ill body slam you.
Your position I find ridiculous Aunt Spiker and the way you went off and spun a simple statement....If you think women being placed in combat SOMEHOW makes them equal to men in all ways your cracked...Theres a whole variety of issues that are unique to women...like having babies and being mothers for one....like this or not Auntie women as a rule are WEAKER than men physically and you can want that pushed under the rug all you want...doesnt change that fact that it is 100% true...
I was raised to respect women and to protect them and thats what ive done MY ENTIRE LIFE and in all those years there was only a couple of incidents of where I ran into a feminazi...that wanted to bite my head off...Im not changing what I believe in or what I am for a handful of women that want to be considered IDENTICAL to men....your not, you never were and you never will be...thats a physiological fact...now you can take that up with god or evolution because I cant change that for you.

Yes - you did . . . you see us as weak even when we aren't. You said it right there - that is your view. So what's your issue, here?

You see us as weaker - even when we are not (you even admit it - you know it's true - even though some women are not - you know that's true to but you just don't want to care about that) . . . I just want those women who are not to be able to do all that they can do without being denied the opportunity.

I find it offensive that men look at me and ASSUME I won't be able to do ___ and ___ because I'm a woman. At least give me a chance to try it - maybe I can. How do you know?

I've learned - in my many years of doing home improvement and car maintenance without my husband's help - that I can do anything, if not more, than he can.

So - yes - your view is disgusting and only assumes I'm inferior because I birthed children and have a *****. Yet you don't know me at all - I find your false assumption to be grotesquely offensive and insulting. . .honestly. Maybe you need to visit other cultures and see how other people live - we're not all skinny little frail things, you know. :roll:

What if there are 10 women who are stronger than the average male? I say step aside and let them do what they can do. Your view, instead, treats them like they're freakish and insists that they shouldn't even though they obviously can.

(edit - oh wait - you do even admit that a handful of women are capable . . . but just don't give a **** . . . wow - that's just horrid. Why do you think that they're wanting to be IDENTICAL to men? Is that what this is about to you - you think they're trying to become men and you think it's gross so of course you'll put your foot down and say no? And you honestly don't see the problem there? See - women who are capable and physically on par are treated like they're ****ED UP AND DISEASED. You're making an admittance of their overall abilities - they can . .. but because you don't like the concept you still say no :roll: Instead you want to treat them like they need psychiatric care and gender identification intervention :roll: See - weakness is bad, that's your view. And you don't honestly see how I don't want to be seen as weak - weakness is bad . . .why would I want to be weak and incapable? Do you look at a man who is physically less than average strength wise as being on par with "wanting to be IDENTICAL to women?")

Thankfully - we're moving on . . . I just want them to do two things:
1) Say "yes - if you pass tests you are in"
2) and then "we're adjusting requirements so we're not weakening our ranks by letting you in"

:shrug: Done.

You say "but you're a woman so - regardless of whether you can or not - I think you're weird for wanting to - so no" . . .and you honestly don't see the ISSUE there? You've got issues if you don't see why it's offensive - your blanket assumptions and negative treatment.
 
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Yes - you did . . . you see us as weak even when we aren't. You said it right there - that is your view. So what's your issue, here?

You see us as weaker - even when we are not (you even admit it - you know it's true - even though some women are not - you know that's true to but you just don't want to care about that) . . . I just want those women who are not to be able to do all that they can do without being denied the opportunity.

I find it offensive that men look at me and ASSUME I won't be able to do ___ and ___ because I'm a woman. At least give me a chance to try it - maybe I can. How do you know?

I've learned - in my many years of doing home improvement and car maintenance without my husband's help - that I can do anything, if not more, than he can.

So - yes - your view is disgusting and only assumes I'm inferior because I birthed children and have a *****. Yet you don't know me at all - I find your false assumption to be grotesquely offensive and insulting. . .honestly. Maybe you need to visit other cultures and see how other people live - we're not all skinny little frail things, you know. :roll:

Your just looking for an argument...you want to make this out to be whatever issues about men and women aunt spiker has running around inside her head...go for it...
Some women arent frail and weak and NO ONE SAID THEY WERE except for YOU...lol...I said most women appreciate a man that opens the door for them and will protect them..and I believe that and I also believe most women are not farm heiffers that throw around bails of hay all day long either..
Sorry you dont want the phsysiology to be what it is...but neither of us can change it....they have classifications based on weight and gender in professional boxing...know why...theres an ageless saying in A good big man will beat a good little man every day all day...and what that means in boxing is this...a 150lb man in perfect physical condition cannot withstand a 230lb man in perfect physical condition. thats why there are weight classifications to keep the advantage to a minimum. There arent many 230lb women in perfect physical condition...theres not many 200lb women in good condition...that doesnt mean theres LESS women in good condition it means that women in good condition never reach that weight without loads of blubber on them.. Yes I see women as weaker than men as a rule...because they are...thats not just my OPINION aunt spiker...its A FACT OF LIFE...that you need to accept and just because you dont want men to be respectful to you by opening a door for you or offering to throw bags of concrete on your truck for you ..doesnt mean most women are like that...and a thank god for that.
Now im not going to respond to any more of your rants about this ok....here is my postion once more for you and you can make it out to be anything you want that makes you feel good ok :)

I dont want to see women in combat...women are the future of the world not men...until something changes only women can give birth to other humans. I was raised without a mother, she passed away when I was very young...NO father replaces a mother...and my father was an ace.
Its bad enough fathers go to combat its worse for kids that their mothers would go into combat. YES!!!! I believe men should protect women and show them a natural respect that they dont necessarily show other men and I DONT WANT THAT TO CHANGE....personally aunt spiker and this is all lpast talking right now...I dont want to hug a female sumo wrestler at night...I want to hug a real woman...and thats why theres words that were created like...FEMININE and MASCULINE and to me they are NOT interchangeable...this is my last post on this subject because to go further it will just be a big fight over nothing and I have always had respect for you and enjoyed your posts and I always felt you had tremendous common sense and I still do...I hope you can disagree with me on this issue without considering me some kind of enemy going forward...I do not feel that way towards you at all...and trust aunt spiker I do not look down on women at all...I respect them...but it is what it is phsyically I didnt do that
 
Not to sound crude or anything (honestly I'm not trying to), this depends on the females chest size and hips. If a woman has a A cup breast and skinny hips, this is a null and void point.

True enough, and many a males physique may be less than ideal as well. But on average, I think is the point.
 
Yes - you did . . . you see us as weak even when we aren't. You said it right there - that is your view. So what's your issue, here?

You see us as weaker - even when we are not (you even admit it - you know it's true - even though some women are not - you know that's true to but you just don't want to care about that) . . . I just want those women who are not to be able to do all that they can do without being denied the opportunity.

I find it offensive that men look at me and ASSUME I won't be able to do ___ and ___ because I'm a woman. At least give me a chance to try it - maybe I can. How do you know?

I've learned - in my many years of doing home improvement and car maintenance without my husband's help - that I can do anything, if not more, than he can.

So - yes - your view is disgusting and only assumes I'm inferior because I birthed children and have a *****. Yet you don't know me at all - I find your false assumption to be grotesquely offensive and insulting. . .honestly. Maybe you need to visit other cultures and see how other people live - we're not all skinny little frail things, you know. :roll:

What if there are 10 women who are stronger than the average male? I say step aside and let them do what they can do. Your view, instead, treats them like they're freakish and insists that they shouldn't even though they obviously can.

(edit - oh wait - you do even admit that a handful of women are capable . . . but just don't give a **** . . . wow - that's just horrid. Why do you think that they're wanting to be IDENTICAL to men? Is that what this is about to you - you think they're trying to become men and you think it's gross so of course you'll put your foot down and say no? And you honestly don't see the problem there? See - women who are capable and physically on par are treated like they're ****ED UP AND DISEASED. You're making an admittance of their overall abilities - they can . .. but because you don't like the concept you still say no :roll: Instead you want to treat them like they need psychiatric care and gender identification intervention :roll: See - weakness is bad, that's your view. And you don't honestly see how I don't want to be seen as weak - weakness is bad . . .why would I want to be weak and incapable? Do you look at a man who is physically less than average strength wise as being on par with "wanting to be IDENTICAL to women?")

Thankfully - we're moving on . . . I just want them to do two things:
1) Say "yes - if you pass tests you are in"
2) and then "we're adjusting requirements so we're not weakening our ranks by letting you in"

:shrug: Done.

You say "but you're a woman so - regardless of whether you can or not - I think you're weird for wanting to - so no" . . .and you honestly don't see the ISSUE there? You've got issues if you don't see why it's offensive - your blanket assumptions and negative treatment.

How many soldiers have to die while you're trying? We're talking about war and on the battlefield people's lives are on the line. There's no time for fairness, nor political correctness. The number one objective in battle is to win, with as little loss of life as possible.
 
How many soldiers have to die while you're trying? We're talking about war and on the battlefield people's lives are on the line. There's no time for fairness, nor political correctness. The number one objective in battle is to win, with as little loss of life as possible.

You're making an assumption. It is possible to be fair and not endanger lives. Any more the phrase political correctness is just a fool some use to marginalized discussion.
 
You're making an assumption. It is possible to be fair and not endanger lives. Any more the phrase political correctness is just a fool some use to marginalized discussion.

What if you're wrong?
 
What if you're wrong?

I'm not wrong. It is possible. The devil will always be in he details. But history and the world is full of examples of women in combat.
 
I'm not wrong. It is possible. The devil will always be in he details. But history and the world is full of examples of women in combat.

History is full of examples where coed combat arms units have failed on the battlefield.

Let's be clear, I'm not an opponent to females serving in the combat arms; I'm an opponent of coed combat arms units. I think that if women want to serve in the infantry, it should be in all female units, with female officers; no lower than the company level.
 
History is full of examples where coed combat arms units have failed on the battlefield.

Let's be clear, I'm not an opponent to females serving in the combat arms; I'm an opponent of coed combat arms units. I think that if women want to serve in the infantry, it should be in all female units, with female officers; no lower than the company level.
I've seen data to the contrary. Can't look it up right now (I haven't masted cut and paste on he iPad yet). When I get to my computer, I'll see what I can find.
 
I've seen data to the contrary. Can't look it up right now (I haven't masted cut and paste on he iPad yet). When I get to my computer, I'll see what I can find.

Well, let's see it when you can get it, because I've seen data that supports what I'm saying. NO modern army has deployed coed combat arms units. If it was such a great idea, someone would have figured it out by now.
 
Well, let's see it when you can get it, because I've seen data that supports what I'm saying. NO modern army has deployed coed combat arms units. If it was such a great idea, someone would have figured it out by now.

Lots of great ideas are slow to come around. ;)
 
ACLU sues over policy barring women from combat - chicagotribune.com


The American Civil Liberties Union and four servicewomen sued the U.S. Defense Department on Tuesday to end a ban on women in combat, calling the military the last bastion of discrimination by the federal government and saying modern warfare has already put women in the line of fire.

modern warfare doesn't have the clear boundaries that may have once existed. It will be interesting to see how this plays out

Fine, put woman in real life simulated combat missions and see how they do..... If woman who want to fight can keep up with the guys I see why not. I'm sure the ACLU will want want affirmative action to be applied there tho. Like combat is some kinda office job.

I don't oppose putting woman into combat zones, however they are not built to take the physical stress of a ground mission....

This is why woman don't play in the NFL, NHL, MLB, NBA (they probably could in the NBA tho)....
 
Fine, put woman in real life simulated combat missions and see how they do..... If woman who want to fight can keep up with the guys I see why not. I'm sure the ACLU will want want affirmative action to be applied there tho. Like combat is some kinda office job.

I don't oppose putting woman into combat zones, however they are not built to take the physical stress of a ground mission....

This is why woman don't play in the NFL, NHL, MLB, NBA (they probably could in the NBA tho)....

See, here's the problem with this. You can never really simulate the stress involved with combat. Now matter how realistic you attempt to make any simulation, the participants know that there will be no casualties. I am sure that there are many females that would be very good in combat situations, just as I know for a fact that there are men who are horrible in those situations, but putting females in combat with men is a no-go for me. It would change the equation for me. I just feel like this is a bad idea.
 
How many soldiers have to die while you're trying? We're talking about war and on the battlefield people's lives are on the line. There's no time for fairness, nor political correctness. The number one objective in battle is to win, with as little loss of life as possible.

My squabble with him was more about his overall view of women in general...

I'll state it one last time and be done with it:

"level the physical fitness standards - no more differentia between the sexes." (this is what I oppose)
"Those who qualify - are in - regardless of sex"

No more unbalanced standards.
As it stands I feel that having unequal standards puts individuals in danger and weakens the overall capability of the force. . . you do seem to agree on that. . . so, those who are in are UNQUESTIONABLY ABLE. And then they would qualify without the differentia and they're in. Yes?

Yes.

Very good then . . . What's so hard about that? That's my view - that's where I stand.

The single most annoying thing to me is this: "I want to be in - but I can't perform like everyone else is expected to - so I want you to lower the standards for me. . . " which is bs.

In some areas it just doesn't matter, tech, provisional, oversight and supply, etc - but in other areas it's a huge issue.
 
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