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Thread: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

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    Re: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    Because that paralegal isn't just a paralegal. That may be their primary function, but in the worst case scenario of a base being overrun, that paralegal is fighter. And you have to be in shape to deploy. Imagine being in 130 degree heat, and then having to don MOPP gear. If you're out of shape, you're toast pretty quickly. You've now become a liability as opposed to an asset.
    Fine, but the PT test doesn't test that. And by that reasoning there is also no excuse for lowering the standards as you get older, which they do. If we are going to go on the reasoning that anyone could get overridden at any moment then perhaps everyone should have to meet the standards of an 18 year old male. As someone who has administered more PT tests to Colonels than Privates, I can say we would have to boot a lot of senior personnel.

    There is a tradeoff in that the tougher you make the physical standards the less likely you are going to be able to fill your ranks with otherwise qualified personnel who may be even more proficient in their given skill set.

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    Re: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcogito View Post
    Frankly, I think PT requirements should be by MOS rather than gender. Seriously, why should a paralegal have to be held to the same physical standard as an infantryman, regardless of gender?
    Because some General said so. It doesn't have to make sense, the almighty brass declareth it so.
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    Re: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    War has boundaries? Ever?
    Oh yes it does, especially if you are the U.S..... I don't think war should have any boundaries, if you go to war, you go to war.... that said, war needs to have a clear goal and job to be done, and this goal/job must be important enough for some civilians to die... if it's not, than don't go to war.

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    Re: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

    Quote Originally Posted by Surtr View Post
    Considering that they also work closely with those people, and do people things with those people, no. I don't believe they really think all of the people who support their opposing teams are douchebags. They just say it because making people mad is funny.
    The point I was making was about group identity. I'm from Michigan, and there is a deep seated hatred of all-things-Ohio here for some reason. Perhaps it all stems from the UofM/OSU rivalry, or perhaps it goes back to Toledo. Who knows. But the thing is, the opposing team's coach has to be escorted out of the stadium by police after the game is over. This is standard practice in either stadium. And it's not unheard of in other places. The point is, when someone gets so wrapped up in group identity like that - calling names, physically intimidating, casting aspersions on one's parentage - it can actually lead to violence. The propaganda masters in WWII knew this. Look at an old war-era poster of a "jap" with sharp teeth, beady eyes, talon-like fingers... they were physically painted as monstrous. We didn't do that to make them look friendlier. Names serve the same role to some extent, because you can call that guy a person, and you can call yourself a person... but nobody can call you a jap! It's a mark of difference, and that is the first step on the path to dehumanization.

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    Re: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcogito View Post
    Fine, but the PT test doesn't test that. And by that reasoning there is also no excuse for lowering the standards as you get older, which they do. If we are going to go on the reasoning that anyone could get overridden at any moment then perhaps everyone should have to meet the standards of an 18 year old male. As someone who has administered more PT tests to Colonels than Privates, I can say we would have to boot a lot of senior personnel.

    There is a tradeoff in that the tougher you make the physical standards the less likely you are going to be able to fill your ranks with otherwise qualified personnel who may be even more proficient in their given skill set.
    That is an interesting point about the age limits. I mean, an older person does not possess the physical capability of a younger person (with rare exception). If we apply that to females, then we could surmise that, ceterus paribus, the average female does not possess the physical capability of the average male. So, does that mean we discriminate against the females by holding them to the male standard (which isn't personal discrimination so much as discriminating standards), or do we let them have lesser standards but treat them as having lesser capabilities?

    With older men, you have experience, so there is a tradeoff. They may not be as physically fit (some of them are though), but they aren't necessarily the ones leaving the command tent, either. With females, I suppose the trade off would be a warm body to punch buttons and work calculators, but limited career path options.

    Yeah, I guess I fail to see the problem. I still can understand why someone would fight for the "right" to see combat, though. It's kind of what any action you take is trying avoid, at least in theory: kill them today so you don't have to fight them tomorrow. In a perverse way, the goal of fighting is peace.
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    Re: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

    Well I know the Israelis and UK both did studies on women in combat front line units and both came to the conclusion it was a bad idea. The Israelis actually pulled women out after having them for years. This says to me outside of my own anecdotal evidence women on the front lines depending on the job I have no real problem with. However when it comes to infantry, armor and artillery, no freaking way.
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    Re: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    Oh yes it does, especially if you are the U.S..... I don't think war should have any boundaries, if you go to war, you go to war.... that said, war needs to have a clear goal and job to be done, and this goal/job must be important enough for some civilians to die... if it's not, than don't go to war.
    Kind of a different direction, but still, when really fighting for your survival, there are seldom any barriers for anyone. However, when you choose wars, against enemies that can't defeat you, and choose to be imperialistic, imposing your will on others, only an immoral people torture, abuse, and commit horrific acts sanctioned and excused by the people and the government.

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    Re: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

    Quote Originally Posted by Surtr View Post
    For civilized peoples it does. International law, ROE, the Geneva Convention, the Hague Convention, and a plethora of treaties which limit what we can and cannot do.
    Don't argue those things, but in context of the thread, who can kill? Fight? Are the rules the same everywhere?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    ACLU sues over policy barring women from combat - chicagotribune.com


    The American Civil Liberties Union and four servicewomen sued the U.S. Defense Department on Tuesday to end a ban on women in combat, calling the military the last bastion of discrimination by the federal government and saying modern warfare has already put women in the line of fire.

    modern warfare doesn't have the clear boundaries that may have once existed. It will be interesting to see how this plays out
    Until we no longer have tits and pussy we'll still be considered differently situated.

    I'd be surprised otherwise.

    The concept makes me nervous because women are given substandard fitness standards - I think it's bull**** - it lets the weak in where there should be no weakness.

    (I know I know - all the response arguments heading my way. I've heard it all. I don't care. I only support equalized standards for everyone - if a guy can't under perform and be in, then women shouldn't be able to under perform and get in, either)
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    Re: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Until we no longer have tits and pussy we'll still be considered differently situated.

    I'd be surprised otherwise.

    The concept makes me nervous because women are given substandard fitness standards - I think it's bull**** - it lets the weak in where there should be no weakness.

    (I know I know - all the response arguments heading my way. I've heard it all. I don't care. I only support equalized standards for everyone - if a guy can't under perform and be in, then women shouldn't be able to under perform and get in, either)
    Just to play devils advocate, we may question if those standards are really the important factor. Say all men became ill, and could not do anything physical, fires would still happen, and women would still fight them. They would adjust and develop different strategies for fighting them. In some cases, such rethinking may well lead to better strategies. I would not be too fixed to only one way of doing anything.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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