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Thread: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

  1. #101
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    Re: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

    Quote Originally Posted by Cilogy View Post
    Granted, there are women who are not fit enough for combat ... but there also are. So we just completely ban all women now? Brilliant logic.
    Even more brilliant logic is to totally ignore all of the proof and opinion I presented of why this move would be detrimental to the military by singling out the one sentence you know you can refute and attempting to refute it with a very simple and basic argument followed by an equally simple and basic attempt at insulting me with your "brilliant logic" comment.
    What would be brilliant is if you could conjure up a way to dispute the mountains of facts and the chain reaction that I believe would happen if we totally opened up combat mos's to women. Of course, you can't do that because A) You have no data to refute it B) You have no experience to refute it C) You seem to lack the mental agility to refute it. Now, how about an honest debate instead of lumping a group of people into one post and offering one liners and snide comments back at them.
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  2. #102
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    Re: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Even more brilliant logic is to totally ignore all of the proof and opinion I presented of why this move would be detrimental to the military by singling out the one sentence you know you can refute and attempting to refute it with a very simple and basic argument followed by an equally simple and basic attempt at insulting me with your "brilliant logic" comment.
    What would be brilliant is if you could conjure up a way to dispute the mountains of facts and the chain reaction that I believe would happen if we totally opened up combat mos's to women. Of course, you can't do that because A) You have no data to refute it B) You have no experience to refute it C) You seem to lack the mental agility to refute it. Now, how about an honest debate instead of lumping a group of people into one post and offering one liners and snide comments back at them.
    Calm down, I wasn't arguing against your data, in fact I quite literally said that there are definitely more women who are unfit for duty. However I'm saying it's unrealistic to just make broad generalizations about women based on your numbers. It's brilliant logic because your statement "women shouldn't be in combat, period" is ridiculously absolutist and is the very same logic that just keeps sexism and discrimination alive.

    I "lumped a group of people into one post" because I don't want to make like 6 consecutive posts in a row. Also, I made one liners mostly because some of the comments in this thread are just so hilarious that I'm at a loss for words.

    So the question still stands, do we just ban ALL women? Even those who WOULD be fit for front line combat?


  3. #103
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    Re: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcogito View Post
    Well, it isn’t the kind of issue that can be resolved by just changing one thing. You are right, if the only change is all females have to meet the male standard then that would be disastrous for women in the Armed Forces. What I am saying is it is the job that matters. If a female can be a veterinary assistant in the Army without having to run two miles in 15 minutes, than a male should be held to that same standard. But to be infantry you would likely need to score much higher on a PT than a vet tech though not as high on an ASVAB.
    The issues you would run into is this. 1) Physical fitness must matter due to health care costs. A healthy force equals a cheap force. This is why we have a minimum standard. 2) Unlike anywhere else in the US (besides Hooters), appearance matters here. We have to look fit. 3) The minimum standards for the Marine Corps are the highest of the 4 branches. They are also not very hard to meet IMO. If someone can't meet our standards, I don't think they have any business being in a uniform.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcogito View Post
    We set different ASVAB requirements for different MOSs so I don’t see why we can’t do the same for physical fitness. I realize the USMC is the smallest of the forces and the only one that doesn’t have problems meetings its recruitment goals, so it can likely afford to be more picky.
    I think when you're referring to the ASVAB you are speaking of mental agility/ability, which really can't be improved in a tangible way like physical fitness. More or less you have it or you don't. I think the difference is that our leaders think it's easier to improve someone physically than it is mentally. If someone can meet a minimum standard of physical fitness, they at least have the template of a service member that can be improved. With the ASVAB, you are measuring something that can't be improved. Sure, a servicemember can learn new skills. But their ability to learn new things isn't going to improve. Therefore, we need people capable of learning at the level we need to execute each MOS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcogito View Post
    I think it should be dependent on the MOS, not the gender. And why do we lower the standards for the older members? Some say it is because they are in leadership positions and less likely to have to do the grunt work. I say then the requirement should be adjusted by RANK, not by AGE. But that is just me.
    It's harder for an older guy to meet the same standards. That's all there is to it. I'm 32 and it's harder to stay healthy enough to be in elite shape than it used to be. I can still smoke all the younger kids, but it hurts worse to do it lol.
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  4. #104
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    Re: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

    Generalizations almost never work. Determine a persons worth on an individual basis. Is that not why we have drill sergeants?
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  5. #105
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    Re: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    Generalizations almost never work. Determine a persons worth on an individual basis. Is that not why we have drill sergeants?
    You have to have minimum standards. I can't set standards for each person. Then discrimination, favortism, racism, sexism, etc will be accused at all turns.
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    Re: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Doesn't change what I said.
    So you have a better measuring stick? Let's hear it instead of vague statements.
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    Re: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    So you have a better measuring stick? Let's hear it instead of vague statements.
    Haven't thought about it all that much, but your argument as I read hinges on it actually being the needed standard. And with a long history of males dominating the field it is possible there is more than a bit of group think going on. At some level I find that an interesting possibility.

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  8. #108
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    Re: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

    Quote Originally Posted by Cilogy View Post
    Calm down, I wasn't arguing against your data, in fact I quite literally said that there are definitely more women who are unfit for duty. However I'm saying it's unrealistic to just make broad generalizations about women based on your numbers. It's brilliant logic because your statement "women shouldn't be in combat, period" is ridiculously absolutist and is the very same logic that just keeps sexism and discrimination alive.
    I "lumped a group of people into one post" because I don't want to make like 6 consecutive posts in a row. Also, I made one liners mostly because some of the comments in this thread are just so hilarious that I'm at a loss for words.

    So the question still stands, do we just ban ALL women? Even those who WOULD be fit for front line combat?
    Its not sexism. I don't have an issue with women. I have an issue with their ability. I didn't have an issue with DADT being repealed because being gay doesn't effect one's ability to perform one's duties as required by MOS. Women are proved to be weaker. What you are proposing is that women should be double screened to go into combat MOS's while males would not be. That isn't fair either and will be an issue brought up by the "fair mongers". Therefore, my chain reaction I presented will go into effect.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    You have to have minimum standards. I can't set standards for each person. Then discrimination, favortism, racism, sexism, etc will be accused at all turns.
    Why not? Either a person will, or will not, make a good soldier. Just because someone can do a lot of pushups, does not a soldier make. ****, dude, I can do 70 pushups in one round somewhat easily, does NOT make me a good person to have your back in a combat situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  10. #110
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    Re: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Haven't thought about it all that much, but your argument as I read hinges on it actually being the needed standard. And with a long history of males dominating the field it is possible there is more than a bit of group think going on. At some level I find that an interesting possibility.
    There has to be a standard bro. You know that. You've served. If we want fairness, there should be a TRUE standard. Not a standard based on sex. I see what you're saying though. That maybe the standard is skewed based on the ability of males because males came up with it. However, I can't think of any physical events that women would be better at than men or are even with men on that could be included in a physical fitness test. The only way to go would be to lower standards, which I think we could both agree is bad business
    Last edited by MarineTpartier; 11-29-12 at 12:12 AM.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

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