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Thread: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

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    Re: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

    Another point to drive this home. Various interest groups (and many of you who have no clue what you're talking about) state that they want equal footing for women. Very well, let's look at how "even" the footing is. The male and female physical fitness test (PFT) standards in the Marine Corps are hugely swayed in the females favor. Here are the standards:
    For males, the PFT is divided into 3 events, each with a max of 100 points to be earned. They are pullups/chin ups, crunches, and a 3 mile run. For pullups/chin ups the max is 20, the min is 3. Crunches, max 100, min 44. Run max 18 minutes min 28 minutes.
    For women, the PFT is divided into 3 events, each with a max of 100 points to be earned. They are the flexed arm hang (FAH), crunches, and a 3 mile run. Basically, the FAH is where you execute 1 pull up and see how long you can hang before you arms lock back out. For the FAH, its 70 seconds max, 15 seconds min. Crunches, max is 100, min is 40. Run max is 21 minutes, min is 31 minutes.
    Here's the issue. The FAH was instituted because women, overwhelmingly, are too weak to execute pull ups. Not being able to execute pull ups equals women not getting as high of PFT scores as males. This equals women not being promoted as fast. But isn't that fair? We want things to be fair correct? Why should a woman only have to hang from a bar while I have to do chin ups? Why should a woman be allowed to run 3 miles, 3 minutes slower than me yet attain the same score? 3 minutes is a LONG time when speaking of running. In the name of fairness, let's level the playing field. You won't hear ANY interest group say ANYTHING about this. Why? Because then we revert back to the all male gun club and God forbid that happen. Then, we have a bunch of women being passed over for promotion and eventually kicked out because they can't meet the standards. They don't want it to be THAT fair. Just fair enough that they can get the glory without the work to earn it.
    Full disclosure, rumor has it that the Marine Corps has stated they intend to institute new PFT standards for women where they have to execute pull ups. However, their max is 8. My max is 20. If a male Marine in my unit does 8, we make fun of him for being weak. In recruit training, I used to put all of my recruits (I was a Drill Instructor) on remedial physical training if they did under 10. So now we have women being able to do almost half as many pull ups as us yet get the same points. And there still isn't an adjustment of the run time disparity. Hey, that's not fair!!!
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    Re: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    Am I the only one who is more concerned about the danger of women being raped when held in closed quarters with men, then about whether or not women are suitable for combat?

    Seriously, does the ACLU even take women's safety into consideration?
    Women are already in close quarters with men when deployed. I don't see how what job they are doing when they leave those quarters would affect that problem.

    I have served in gender-integrated units in which females were sleeping in the cots right next to be when we were in the field. They would change in their sleeping bag or put up a tarp. We were admin, drivers, mechanics and the like. How would of us being infantry had changed that, other than perhaps not having cots?

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    Re: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Another point to drive this home. Various interest groups (and many of you who have no clue what you're talking about) state that they want equal footing for women. Very well, let's look at how "even" the footing is. The male and female physical fitness test (PFT) standards in the Marine Corps are hugely swayed in the females favor. Here are the standards:
    For males, the PFT is divided into 3 events, each with a max of 100 points to be earned. They are pullups/chin ups, crunches, and a 3 mile run. For pullups/chin ups the max is 20, the min is 3. Crunches, max 100, min 44. Run max 18 minutes min 28 minutes.
    For women, the PFT is divided into 3 events, each with a max of 100 points to be earned. They are the flexed arm hang (FAH), crunches, and a 3 mile run. Basically, the FAH is where you execute 1 pull up and see how long you can hang before you arms lock back out. For the FAH, its 70 seconds max, 15 seconds min. Crunches, max is 100, min is 40. Run max is 21 minutes, min is 31 minutes.
    Here's the issue. The FAH was instituted because women, overwhelmingly, are too weak to execute pull ups. Not being able to execute pull ups equals women not getting as high of PFT scores as males. This equals women not being promoted as fast. But isn't that fair? We want things to be fair correct? Why should a woman only have to hang from a bar while I have to do chin ups? Why should a woman be allowed to run 3 miles, 3 minutes slower than me yet attain the same score? 3 minutes is a LONG time when speaking of running. In the name of fairness, let's level the playing field. You won't hear ANY interest group say ANYTHING about this. Why? Because then we revert back to the all male gun club and God forbid that happen. Then, we have a bunch of women being passed over for promotion and eventually kicked out because they can't meet the standards. They don't want it to be THAT fair. Just fair enough that they can get the glory without the work to earn it.
    Full disclosure, rumor has it that the Marine Corps has stated they intend to institute new PFT standards for women where they have to execute pull ups. However, their max is 8. My max is 20. If a male Marine in my unit does 8, we make fun of him for being weak. In recruit training, I used to put all of my recruits (I was a Drill Instructor) on remedial physical training if they did under 10. So now we have women being able to do almost half as many pull ups as us yet get the same points. And there still isn't an adjustment of the run time disparity. Hey, that's not fair!!!
    I think most people who advocate allowing women into combat MOSs, myself included, do so on the condition that they have to meet the same physical standards as the men. And yes, that means that the vast majority of women won't be able do it. But some will.

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    Re: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    From your study:
    •11% of women have experienced rape

    Nationally:
    Nearly 20 percent of women in the United States have been raped at least once
    Nearly one in five U.S. women raped in lifetime: study | Reuters

    Sounds like they'd be safer with us.
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    Re: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcogito View Post
    I think most people who advocate allowing women into combat MOSs, myself included, do so on the condition that they have to meet the same physical standards as the men. And yes, that means that the vast majority of women won't be able do it. But some will.
    Currently, there are no special physical standards that men have to meet to gain access to combat MOSs. The standards I posted are the standards that all Marines must meet, no matter their MOS. If we are saying that women should be able to meet these standards, then that means they won't gain access to the military period when most of them fail them. That, or they will be on the low end of the spectrum of performance thereby decreasing our capabilities. Is that really what we want in the name of fairness? We want to decrease our capabilites so that it's fair? That's not what we SHOULD be about. Apparently, that's what we are turning in to though.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Currently, there are no special physical standards that men have to meet to gain access to combat MOSs. The standards I posted are the standards that all Marines must meet, no matter their MOS. If we are saying that women should be able to meet these standards, then that means they won't gain access to the military period when most of them fail them. That, or they will be on the low end of the spectrum of performance thereby decreasing our capabilities. Is that really what we want in the name of fairness? We want to decrease our capabilites so that it's fair? That's not what we SHOULD be about. Apparently, that's what we are turning in to though.
    Assuming of course that those standards actually represent the essentials what is needed to be effective today.

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    Re: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Assuming of course that those standards actually represent the essentials what is needed to be effective today.
    I haven't mentioned the Combat Fitness Test yet. Which is also skewed to women. I'm sticking with this because there is more data and it has more history. The PFT has been around forever. The CFT just started recently and was skewed to women from its inception.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

    Oh boy, here we go ...

    *flexes fingers*

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    The women in the Navy I talk to don't want to be in combat.
    Oh man, I had no idea the women you know don't want to be in combat, we should probably bar every single woman from combat now because of what you've experienced.

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    Historically men go to war to protect their women and children from wars barbarism. Women do not belong in a combat situation period. Having said that though those little gook women were bad ass cold blooded killers so I could be wrong. And gook is not a racial slur, it was the term of the day like kraut or Jap, war words are not infraction worthy, I don't think.
    lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Surtr View Post
    Great, just what the Military needs. More civilians with no military experience telling us what we need. Same reason we now get issued thousands of dollars of equipment that stays in its original packaging, stuffed in a ruck in the back of a closet.
    The military need non-civilians with military experience to tell them what equality means?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Hrm... I don't know, I've played Modern Warfare and I didn't see any females at all in it.
    ah, machismo misogyny ... wonderful

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Women should not be in combat. Period. It's not a women's rights thing. It's a performance thing.
    Granted, there are women who are not fit enough for combat ... but there also are. So we just completely ban all women now? Brilliant logic.

    By the way, not only does this argument say women can't be good enough to be on the front-lines, but it also makes men more disposable. It says men can and should be thrown away to death more than women. So really, everyone should be concerned about this inequality.

    I don't support war in general, but this sort of discrimination is unacceptable simply because it keeps sexism alive.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    Am I the only one who is more concerned about the danger of women being raped when held in closed quarters with men, then about whether or not women are suitable for combat?

    Seriously, does the ACLU even take women's safety into consideration?
    This is also a stupid argument because what it's essentially saying is that we should stop women from getting raped instead of, say ... oh I don't know ... maybe stop actual rape?


    I seriously don't think a lot of people understand the effects of sexism, even at the military level. These attitudes just continue to propagate certain societal restrictions and types of discrimination against women.

    The requirements need to remain the same, doesn't matter if you're a man, a woman, or a rhinoceros. If you're gonna be in the military there should be level standards for combat. If they do sway in favor of women, then that's a shame and they should be equalized. HOWEVER, this does not mean we just ban all women from now on. Don't be ridiculous.
    Last edited by Cilogy; 11-28-12 at 11:43 PM.


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    Re: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Currently, there are no special physical standards that men have to meet to gain access to combat MOSs. The standards I posted are the standards that all Marines must meet, no matter their MOS. If we are saying that women should be able to meet these standards, then that means they won't gain access to the military period when most of them fail them. That, or they will be on the low end of the spectrum of performance thereby decreasing our capabilities. Is that really what we want in the name of fairness? We want to decrease our capabilites so that it's fair? That's not what we SHOULD be about. Apparently, that's what we are turning in to though.
    Well, it isn’t the kind of issue that can be resolved by just changing one thing. You are right, if the only change is all females have to meet the male standard then that would be disastrous for women in the Armed Forces. What I am saying is it is the job that matters. If a female can be a veterinary assistant in the Army without having to run two miles in 15 minutes, than a male should be held to that same standard. But to be infantry you would likely need to score much higher on a PT than a vet tech though not as high on an ASVAB.

    We set different ASVAB requirements for different MOSs so I don’t see why we can’t do the same for physical fitness. I realize the USMC is the smallest of the forces and the only one that doesn’t have problems meetings its recruitment goals, so it can likely afford to be more picky.

    I think it should be dependent on the MOS, not the gender. And why do we lower the standards for the older members? Some say it is because they are in leadership positions and less likely to have to do the grunt work. I say then the requirement should be adjusted by RANK, not by AGE.

    But that is just me.

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    Re: Aclu sues over policy barring women from combat

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    I haven't mentioned the Combat Fitness Test yet. Which is also skewed to women. I'm sticking with this because there is more data and it has more history. The PFT has been around forever. The CFT just started recently and was skewed to women from its inception.
    Doesn't change what I said.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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