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Thread: Thanksgiving beating victim says assault was hate crime

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    Re: Thanksgiving beating victim says assault was hate crime

    A crime is a crime and should be punished as evenly as possible. Hate crime laws are thought crime punishments and I think that is a very dangerous road to go down.

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    Re: Thanksgiving beating victim says assault was hate crime

    Quote Originally Posted by spanky View Post
    A crime is a crime and should be punished as evenly as possible. Hate crime laws are thought crime punishments and I think that is a very dangerous road to go down.
    tis a slippery slope when you start punishing people for what they are thinking
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    Re: Thanksgiving beating victim says assault was hate crime

    It's not even that (to me) - it's that the crime is just as bad no matter what the reason.

    What if he caved her face in while trying to steal from her?

    To me the end result overrides why they might have done it - it should be approached the same way in many cases.
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    Re: Thanksgiving beating victim says assault was hate crime

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    First a disclaimer: I do not have a strong opinion about hate crimes one way or another, but I do think that if they're going to be debated, it'd be a good idea for people to understand what they actually are and why they exists. Several things:

    1) The severity of one's criminal punishment can vary greatly depending on the thought (i.e. intent) behind the crime. This is one of the reasons that things like the heat of passion defense exist in murder cases.

    2) The idea behind punishing a hate crime more severely than a similar crime absent some racial/gender/orientation based hatred is that certain crimes are thought to have a negative and lasting impact not just on the actual victim, but on the class of people to which he belongs. From that perspective thje punishment is more severe because the impact is more severe, not, strictly speaking, because of the defendant's thoughts.

    3) Hate crime laws absolutely do not provide extra protections for certain classes of people. It is fully possible for, say, a black guy to get punished under hate crimes legislation for beating the **** out of a white guy for being white; or to punish some kind of roving band of militant lesbian feminists for kicking the crap out of every straight male they see (hypothetically speaking). As a practical matter, these laws will obviously be applied more often to minority groups, but it's innacurate to suggest that they (the minority groups) are getting extra legal protections. That is no more true than the notion that the 14th amendment's equal protection clause provides extra protections for minorities.
    That was the rationale but it's absurd. A home invasion robbery or violence would have a lasting impact on that family. If a murder happens down one's street EVERYONE in the area is affected and may have a lasting impact. A serial killer may put an entire city in fear.

    Where do those people go to get the extra justice afforded others?

    "Hate crime laws absolutely do not provide extra protections for certain classes of people."

    In theory, it's possible for a homosexual to be tried for attacking a hetero, but in practice, of course it does. It offers extra justice to s few according to sexual orientation and religion.

    BTW - It's no about extra protection, it's about extra justice.

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    Re: Thanksgiving beating victim says assault was hate crime

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    This must be one of those families joko104 blamed Obama for destroying.
    ^ A pointless bizarre hate message having no connection to anything. Obviously you think about me frequently.

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    Re: Thanksgiving beating victim says assault was hate crime

    Quote Originally Posted by spanky View Post
    That was the rationale but it's absurd. A home invasion robbery or violence would have a lasting impact on that family. If a murder happens down one's street EVERYONE in the area is affected and may have a lasting impact. A serial killer may put an entire city in fear.
    First, murders happen all the time, especially in major cities. I've never been affected in any meaningful way by any of them, and I doubt you have either. Same deal with serial killers. Second, you're still talking about normal societal impact of a crime, which is already figured into the sentencing. A better, and more compelling hypothetical situation might involve, say a serial rapist who specifically targets young blondes and only young blondes. In such a situation, anyone fitting that description is going to have their day to day life affected in ways that, say, a murder (totally unconnected to any traits posessed by the victim) would not cause. Of course in that situation, hate crime laws might very well be applicable.

    Quote Originally Posted by spanky View Post
    Where do those people go to get the extra justice afforded others?

    "Hate crime laws absolutely do not provide extra protections for certain classes of people."

    In theory, it's possible for a homosexual to be tried for attacking a hetero, but in practice, of course it does. It offers extra justice to s few according to sexual orientation and religion.

    BTW - It's no about extra protection, it's about extra justice.
    As I pointed out to Goshin a page or two back, this argument is why I referenced the Equal Protection clause in my post, because the exact same argument could be made with that. EP undoubtedly has been used far more often to protect minorities of various stripes than to protect straight white males, even though it applies equally to everyone. That doesn't mean it doesn't serve a good and valid purpose, and it certainly doesn't mean that anyone's getting extra justice. Moreoever, as the demographics of this country continue to shift it's virtually certain that hate crime laws, and EP, will see a lot more use in protecting what is currently the dominant ethnic group. So no, the law doesn't provide extra protection or extra justice to anyone.

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    Re: Thanksgiving beating victim says assault was hate crime

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    First, murders happen all the time, especially in major cities. I've never been affected in any meaningful way by any of them, and I doubt you have either. Same deal with serial killers. Second, you're still talking about normal societal impact of a crime, which is already figured into the sentencing. A better, and more compelling hypothetical situation might involve, say a serial rapist who specifically targets young blondes and only young blondes. In such a situation, anyone fitting that description is going to have their day to day life affected in ways that, say, a murder (totally unconnected to any traits posessed by the victim) would not cause. Of course in that situation, hate crime laws might very well be applicable.



    As I pointed out to Goshin a page or two back, this argument is why I referenced the Equal Protection clause in my post, because the exact same argument could be made with that. EP undoubtedly has been used far more often to protect minorities of various stripes than to protect straight white males, even though it applies equally to everyone. That doesn't mean it doesn't serve a good and valid purpose, and it certainly doesn't mean that anyone's getting extra justice. Moreoever, as the demographics of this country continue to shift it's virtually certain that hate crime laws, and EP, will see a lot more use in protecting what is currently the dominant ethnic group. So no, the law doesn't provide extra protection or extra justice to anyone.
    So it's your position that hate crime laws don't provide extra justice to GBLT victims over heterosexuals? Or the religious over atheists?

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    Re: Thanksgiving beating victim says assault was hate crime

    Quote Originally Posted by spanky View Post
    So it's your position that hate crime laws don't provide extra justice to GBLT victims over heterosexuals? Or the religious over atheists?
    Correct. Edit: At least not any more so than, say, rape laws vis-a-vis women, or the aforementioned EP clause.

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