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Education

JRog said:
Go ahead and do it all day. I think you'd find the poorest performing schools are those which reside in city areas with poverty. Hard to expect good performance from school children when they have unstable home lives as both parents are working and they're still barely scraping by enough to pay for food or healthcare. Poverty = higher crime and lower education. What do the countries ahead of us have significantly in common? STRONG SOCIAL PROGRAMS including EDUCATION SPENDING.
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That's not the point. The point is that these students don't need advanced mathematics. Let's not lose sight of what we were discussing.

Honestly, it's comical that a political ideology attempts to pull away social spending and education spending, villanizes education as "elitist", and then complains about how poor our schools are
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I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You find very strange things comical. Our schools are failing generations of children. And yet we just keep doing the same thing over and over and over again. And we know what the defines, don't we?

BTW, it isn't all about poverty. Naperville, listed above, has a median household income of over $100,000 per year.
 
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MaggieD said:
That's not the point. The point is that these students don't need advanced mathematics. Let's not lose sight of what we were discussing.
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If you want to be specific, the original discussion was about why we bother teaching students subjects they "won't need". It was not originally a discussion about poor performing students, just the ones who we (no idea which governmental board would determine who gets to learn math and who doesn't) magically determine won't eventually need it.

Let me give you an anecdotal story, my brother had behavioural problems in middle school and high school. He had some learning disabilities as well. When he became a junior and senior in high school, he became much more focused and ended up with a master's degree in engineering working in the development of tools for the DoD. Sure glad they didn't determine that he wouldn't "need" advanced math.
 
JRog said:
Unfortunately, the performance of students is brought down by funding and lack of focus on education. How can our education system thrive when a large portion of the political ideology of our country celebrates ignorance?
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There is plenty of funding.... when we stop using that money for Art, Music, Gym, Sports, etc.... for everyone instead of using those things as the carrot to ensure that students are keeping up with their basic skills at or above grade level. You are right that there's a lack of focus on education. The focus is simply on an assembly-line ideal where the kids are moved along whether they can actually do the work or not. We need to be willing to say to a parent... "Sorry, Mrs. Smith but Johnny has to stay in 4th grade AGAIN, because even the second time through he still isn't meeting the requirements to move on."

It's not that we celebrate "ignorance" JRog. It's that we simply don't have any use for political indoctrination of our children by individuals who are not directly answerable to US.
 
Tigger said:
Are you telling me that at the 7th and 8th grade levels you didn't have a pretty good idea which of your classmates were college material and which were likely to be working the Slurpee machine at Seven-11?
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No, I don't. And it's not a belief, it's a science called developmental psychology.

If you need a calculator to add 154+225, you've got a major problem. The ceiling has gone up but the floor still remains where it has always been. The problem is that instead of a ladder or stairs we put these kids on an escalator so they reach the top whether they're actually capable of getting there on their own or not.
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Math is actually taught in a different fashion in schools now. No more memorizing multiplication and division tables. They're now learning math theory as early as kindergarten. I guess we'll see if that helps. But the inability to do mental math doesn't indicate a major inability to do math. One can understand math theory without being able to look at numbers and add them together.
 
Spriggs05 said:
BBC News - UK education sixth in global ranking

EDUCATION TOP 20
Finland
South Korea
Hong Kong
Japan
Singapore
UK
Netherlands
New Zealand
Switzerland
Canada
Ireland
Denmark
Australia
Poland
Germany
Belgium
USA
Hungary
Slovakia
Russia
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The thing that is really surprising is that the US even ranks that high.

MaggieD pointed out the track system, but even that is not the full story.

While the track system would help in the US, it is not a total solution. Culture, or the lack thereof, is the greatest factor affecting the US. We in the US face challenges that many of those other countries don't have, and where they do, they approach it differently. While they do have a very small minority, the better performing nations are all Mono-Culture, Mono-Ethnic in make up. I notice that France is completely missing from the list, the only other country that has tried a Multi-Cultural approach. We actually spend money and time on Multi-Cultural education and other liberal nonsense.

Blacks and Hispanics in this country have a culture of poverty and in those areas, our schools are the worse in the nation. Some have tried breaking out of that culture, but by no means enough of them. This will continue until these "Cultures" choose to break that cycle. When they finally decide to place the future of their children above loyalty to their race/culture and help instead of hinder police from cleaning up the gangers, violence and educate their children breaking the repeated cycles of welfarism, teen pregnancy, poor discipline, etc, integrating themselves into a mono-cultural society, only then will our education system truly improve, not to mention many other areas that are failing in America today.
 
Tigger said:
Are you telling me that at the 7th and 8th grade levels you didn't have a pretty good idea which of your classmates were college material and which were likely to be working the Slurpee machine at Seven-11?

If you need a calculator to add 154+225, you've got a major problem. The ceiling has gone up but the floor still remains where it has always been. The problem is that instead of a ladder or stairs we put these kids on an escalator so they reach the top whether they're actually capable of getting there on their own or not.
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hell, before they leave elementary school, the teachers can even identify which students will reside in our correctional system
 
Tigger said:
There is plenty of funding.... when we stop using that money for Art, Music, Gym, Sports, etc.... for everyone instead of using those things as the carrot to ensure that students are keeping up with their basic skills at or above grade level. You are right that there's a lack of focus on education. The focus is simply on an assembly-line ideal where the kids are moved along whether they can actually do the work or not. We need to be willing to say to a parent... "Sorry, Mrs. Smith but Johnny has to stay in 4th grade AGAIN, because even the second time through he still isn't meeting the requirements to move on."
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Studies have shown that students that participate in music and art learn better. How many students who participate in the school plays or the orchestra do you know that ended up working at 7-11? The students who end up with those jobs usually only participate the minimum. Athletics builds team skills, which are important in almost every field of work. A well-rounded education is important, even if you don't think that music, art and athletics are important.

It's not that we celebrate "ignorance" JRog. It's that we simply don't have any use for political indoctrination of our children by individuals who are not directly answerable to US.
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Learning about math and science is not political indoctrination. It just so happens that one political party generally disagrees with math and science based on their religious beliefs.
 
JRog said:
It just so happens that one political party generally disagrees with math and science based on their religious beliefs.
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Holy Moly. Where did that come from?
 
MaggieD said:
Holy Moly. Where did that come from?
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It came from this.

It's not that we celebrate "ignorance" JRog. It's that we simply don't have any use for political indoctrination of our children by individuals who are not directly answerable to US.
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I hear this argument all the time from religious zealots and anti-science individuals.
 
JRog said:
No, I don't. And it's not a belief, it's a science called developmental psychology.
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It's basic common sense, reason, and logic.

JRog said:
Math is actually taught in a different fashion in schools now. No more memorizing multiplication and division tables. They're now learning math theory as early as kindergarten. I guess we'll see if that helps. But the inability to do mental math doesn't indicate a major inability to do math. One can understand math theory without being able to look at numbers and add them together.
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I'm not talking about memorizing anything. These kids can't even do basic long-hand math on a piece of paper. Understanding the theory of something is worthless if you can't actually put it into practice.
 
DVSentinel said:
...integrating themselves into a mono-cultural society, only then will our education system truly improve, not to mention many other areas that are failing in America today.
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Assuming that all other issues remain constant that is for culture alone without financially backed plan may not work. Canada makes it to the top 10 and it is multi-cultured as well.
 
Maybe Americans are genetically stupider, and modeling the rest of the world won't solve that?

ThePlayDrive said:
How embarrassing for the United States.

Can't wait to hear from all those people (read: conservatives) who think we shouldn't pay attention to the rest of the world and have nothing to learn from them or model ourselves after.
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Tigger said:
It's basic common sense, reason, and logic..
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Common sense is another term for an opinion based on assumptions without evidence.
Common sense once determined that the Earth was the center of the Universe, based on logic, reason and our observation.
Common sense once determined that the Earth was flat
Common sense once determined that black people were inferior to white people

Common sense is often disproven with science.
 
JRog said:
Studies have shown that students that participate in music and art learn better. How many students who participate in the school plays or the orchestra do you know that ended up working at 7-11? The students who end up with those jobs usually only participate the minimum. Athletics builds team skills, which are important in almost every field of work. A well-rounded education is important, even if you don't think that music, art and athletics are important.
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Personally, I think it's the other way around.... the students who are intersted in art and music are generally the ones who have already mastered the basic skills of english, math, etc....

JRog said:
Learning about math and science is not political indoctrination. It just so happens that one political party generally disagrees with math and science based on their religious beliefs.
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I don't know of any group that disagrees with math. What most of us disagree with in the science curriculums is the teaching of Scientific Theory as if it were Scientific Law. That is the idea that there is no room for any alternative theory on the topic. Basically we don't want you attempting to indoctrinate our children into a belief that cannot be PROVEN BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT any more than OUR theory can be.
 
ThePlayDrive said:
How embarrassing for the United States.

Can't wait to hear from all those people (read: conservatives) who think we shouldn't pay attention to the rest of the world and have nothing to learn from them or model ourselves after.
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How embarrassing for the top 16 countries whose's asses we kick, and can kick in a big way, all the time. So I guess education doesn't buy you everything much to the chagrin of the teachers unions. It must have a lot to do with the Constitution we have, and why conservatives strive to protect it from idiotic liberal manipulation.
 
MaggieD said:
Yep, that's typical. Nothing in a successful model that disagrees with education in America today "works," according to teachers.
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I don't look at ti that way. Instead, I merely report that it isn't a new idea. That's just a fact. All ideas have a down side. And it made more sense back then when there were more labor intensive jobs, requiring little education. But I was just going over tech manuals today. You do realize they start at a 14th grade reading level? Not much they can really skip going on any track.
 
justabubba said:
we should adopt the tracking method
much like germany's three tiered system
where the student (and hopefully the student's family) identify the track which works best for the student
does the older student plan to further his education at a university
or does the student intend to enter the work force upon graduation without significant technical education
or does he opt to receive a technical education combined with an apprenticeship program
one size does not fit all
and it should be the student, not the school, which makes this selection

the OP makes his case against being too educated, which is like saying one can be too fit, too wealthy, too attractive or too personable. it's just not possible
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It's quite open to having someone wrongly tracked. Not to mention as I state above, there isn't really that much difference any more between the tracks. The real difference is one of either having an education or not.
 
Tigger said:
It's not a sequencing issue when the core information is never required to be proven that it has been mastered in the first place.
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Not sure that's true. What has to be mastered changes. Your examples seem to be where one wasn't ready for the higher level. But are you saying business never uses more advanced technology?
 
American said:
How embarrassing for the top 16 countries whose's asses we kick, and can kick in a big way, all the time. So I guess education doesn't buy you everything much to the chagrin of the teachers unions. It must have a lot to do with the Constitution we have, and why conservatives strive to protect it from idiotic liberal manipulation.
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Well, I must say, as much as I appreciate my education, it did not prepare me to comprehend your posts.
 
Boo Radley said:
Not sure that's true. What has to be mastered changes. Your examples seem to be where one wasn't ready for the higher level. But are you saying business never uses more advanced technology?
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I am suggesting that you must build a foundation of basic skills before you are competent to be employed in even the lowest-level job. If you do not have the fundamental skills to do the most basic job, how do you expect to do the more complex jobs? If you can't do the more complex jobs, how do you plan to become a member of the management team? If you can't be a member of the management team, how do you expect to run the company yourself?

It's no use for the cash register to tell you that you need to give the customer $1.87 in change if you can't figure out the most efficient way to make the $0.87 worth of change.
 
Tigger said:
I am suggesting that you must build a foundation of basic skills before you are competent to be employed in even the lowest-level job. If you do not have the fundamental skills to do the most basic job, how do you expect to do the more complex jobs? If you can't do the more complex jobs, how do you plan to become a member of the management team? If you can't be a member of the management team, how do you expect to run the company yourself?

It's no use for the cash register to tell you that you need to give the customer $1.87 in change if you can't figure out the most efficient way to make the $0.87 worth of change.
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Yes, you must build it. hence, a sequencing problem. If they get more before that is built, the sequence was poorly put together.
 
Boo Radley said:
Yes, you must build it. hence, a sequencing problem. If they get more before that is built, the sequence was poorly put together.
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The problem is that these students are being pushed to the next portion of the sequence whether they have mastered the basic skill(s) or not. Once a basic skill is missed, it becomes very difficult to catch up, or to catch on to anything else.
 
Tigger said:
The problem is that these students are being pushed to the next portion of the sequence whether they have mastered the basic skill(s) or not. Once a basic skill is missed, it becomes very difficult to catch up, or to catch on to anything else.
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Yes it is, so sequence it properly and don't move on until mastered. While unAmerican, that is the way to go.
 
Tigger said:
Personally, I think it's the other way around.... the students who are intersted in art and music are generally the ones who have already mastered the basic skills of english, math, etc....



I don't know of any group that disagrees with math. What most of us disagree with in the science curriculums is the teaching of Scientific Theory as if it were Scientific Law. That is the idea that there is no room for any alternative theory on the topic. Basically we don't want you attempting to indoctrinate our children into a belief that cannot be PROVEN BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT any more than OUR theory can be.
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It's taught as scientific theory. It is not taught as scientific truth. It is up to churches to teach creationism as long as we have separation of church and state. Which "story" shall we teach? Christian? Judaism? Muslim? Which "story"??

Now. I do happen to believe that every high school should have a class on Comparative Religions, but that's another topic.
 
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