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Education

Tigger said:
Which is why the BASIC, CORE knowledge needs to be the primary focus. Until those BASIC, CORE skills can be show repeatedly there should not be access to other things like art, music, gym, technology education, etc.....
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What would be included in "BASIC, CORE?" Also why can't "art, music, gym, technology education" not be included in "BASIC, CORE" courses?
 
Tigger said:
I'll give you a couple examples.....

My father taught Industrial Arts on the middle and high school levels. He had constant battles with his department head because he preferred to teach the students in his woodshop class to use the hand tools rather than the multi-thousand dollar drill presses, table saws, etc... His reasoning.... "These kids are not likely to ever have access to a table saw or drill press after they leave this class. On the other hand a handsaw and drill are things they may have access to and the opportunity/need to use in their lives." Yet, he was forced to take valuable class time to teach these students how to use a machine they'll likely never see again.

How many of the students who are trying to "comrehend" Romeo and Juliet can't even read the prose version of the story, nevermind the verse one because they were never required to actually be able to read the words, nevermind understand what they mean.

I work in an Engineering related field. I haven't found a single incidence in my 18 year professional career where I would have ever used Trigonometry or Calculus, yet we force many high school students who will never even go into a technical field to take at least one of those classes. Often when the basic algebra and geometry they've just taken isn't even properly comprehended.

We have students who can't perform basic elementary school tasks who are taking elective gym and art classes while still being unable to find the verb in a sentence or compute 62+47.
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None of that is really a problem with knowing too much. It's a matter of sequencing.
 
Boo Radley said:
Yes, we used to track here. It is also often a mistake. Many students here are too young to really know. Take what they see as the easy way. I was tracked as the weak mind strong back type. I'm actually strong both ways. ;)
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Yep, that's typical. Nothing in a successful model that disagrees with education in America today "works," according to teachers.
 
DDD said:
What would be included in "BASIC, CORE?" Also why can't "art, music, gym, technology education" not be included in "BASIC, CORE" courses?
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English, Basic Math, American & World History, Basic Science. Think about the things you were supposed to have learned by the time you got out of elementary school and that should cover most of it.

My concern is that we have kids at the elementary school level who are spending time in art, music, and gym who should be spending that time doing remedial work on their reading, writing, math, history, and science lessons. Once we get to the middle and high school level, where these kids often have some say in their course selections and schedules it gets even worse. Art, Music, Gym, etc.... should be a reward for those students who are able to keep up with their other classes.

Boo Radley said:
None of that is really a problem with knowing too much. It's a matter of sequencing.
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It's not a sequencing issue when the core information is never required to be proven that it has been mastered in the first place.
 
Boo Radley said:
Yes, we used to track here. It is also often a mistake. Many students here are too young to really know. Take what they see as the easy way. I was tracked as the weak mind strong back type. I'm actually strong both ways. ;)
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we should adopt the tracking method
much like germany's three tiered system
where the student (and hopefully the student's family) identify the track which works best for the student
does the older student plan to further his education at a university
or does the student intend to enter the work force upon graduation without significant technical education
or does he opt to receive a technical education combined with an apprenticeship program
one size does not fit all
and it should be the student, not the school, which makes this selection

the OP makes his case against being too educated, which is like saying one can be too fit, too wealthy, too attractive or too personable. it's just not possible
 
Tigger said:
English, Basic Math, American & World History, Basic Science. Think about the things you were supposed to have learned by the time you got out of elementary school and that should cover most of it.

My concern is that we have kids at the elementary school level who are spending time in art, music, and gym who should be spending that time doing remedial work on their reading, writing, math, history, and science lessons. Once we get to the middle and high school level, where these kids often have some say in their course selections and schedules it gets even worse. Art, Music, Gym, etc.... should be a reward for those students who are able to keep up with their other classes.
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Well I totally agree. So by "Americans study too much" then you meant that they study too much of "art, music, gym, etc" then, right? Cause it seemed like you were stressing that they study too much of those "CORE" courses that you just mentioned, hence my replies.

But speaking of World History in USA, why is it that most people do not know the history (or even Geographic position) of many countries in Europe? What should be done in the USA education system so as it would include several of its successful political campaigns in Europe?
 
justabubba said:
we should adopt the tracking method
much like germany's three tiered system
where the student (and hopefully the student's family) identify the track which works best for the student
does the older student plan to further his education at a university
or does the student intend to enter the work force upon graduation without significant technical education
or does he opt to receive a technical education combined with an apprenticeship program
one size does not fit all, and it should be the student, not the school, which makes this selection
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No, it should be the student and the parents, in conjunction with the school which make the selection. Far too often the student is not truly capable of understanding where their strengths and weaknesses lay. With the help of both the parents and the school, an appropriate decision on where these students should be placed can be made.

Of course there needs to be a fourth track, started at the Junior High School level..... The Domestic track, for those girls who will be going on to be mothers and wives instead of career-minded women.
 
Tigger said:
Mostly because we are asking people who will never use that information to try and learn it. Why are we doing that? It's ridiculous.
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I think you have your cause and effect mixed up. Education gives kids the basics needed to move into fields they enjoy and in which they excel. How will we know that a highschool kid will not need advanced math?
 
DDD said:
Says there that higher education is related to higher economic development. Assuming the reverse would also apply. should be news worthy and concerning.
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Exactly
 
DDD said:
Well I totally agree. So by "Americans study too much" then you meant that they study too much of "art, music, gym, etc" then, right? Cause it seemed like you were stressing that they study too much of those "CORE" courses that you just mentioned, hence my replies.
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What I mean is that there are too many "distractions" in the American education system which take time, money, and focus away from the basic responsibility of the system to ensure that any student who graduates meets a specific level of education and ABILITY in those core subjects. Those students who have been able to maintain that level over time would then have access to additional eductional opportunities.... art, gym, music, industrial and technical arts, etc.....

DDD said:
But speaking of World History in USA, why is it that most people do not know the history (or even Geographic position) of many countries in Europe? What should be done in the USA education system so as it would include several of its successful political campaigns in Europe?
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In my mind the main focus of History and Social Science classes in the United States should follow the timeline of history, starting with ancient history, and once we reach the 17th-18th century focusing mainly on American history, and world history as it relates to and compares/contrasts with the American experience. Social Sciences and Morality/Values should be a major component of this curriculum as well, included with the facts and figures of the timeline.
 
JRog said:
I think you have your cause and effect mixed up. Education gives kids the basics needed to move into fields they enjoy and in which they excel. How will we know that a highschool kid will not need advanced math?
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If a high schooler reads at a 5th grade level, he will not need advanced math.
 
JRog said:
I think you have your cause and effect mixed up. Education gives kids the basics needed to move into fields they enjoy and in which they excel. How will we know that a highschool kid will not need advanced math?
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First off, how do you expect the student to learn algebra when he can't even do basic multiplication and division without a calculator. Secondly, by the middle school level you have a pretty good idea who your college-bound students are compared to those who will have their name on either the front or back of their shirts at work, and those who will likely never hold a legitimate job to begin with. By that point in time, you can (and most places do to some degree) start categorizing and focusing their education; so long as they have mastered the fundamentals in elementary school.
 
Tigger said:
What I mean is that there are too many "distractions" in the American education system which take time, money, and focus away from the basic responsibility of the system to ensure that any student who graduates meets a specific level of education and ABILITY in those core subjects. Those students who have been able to maintain that level over time would then have access to additional eductional opportunities.... art, gym, music, industrial and technical arts, etc.....
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But then you may risk "distracting" them from their main course again


Tigger said:
In my mind the main focus of History and Social Science classes in the United States should follow the timeline of history, starting with ancient history, and once we reach the 17th-18th century focusing mainly on American history, and world history as it relates to and compares/contrasts with the American experience. Social Sciences and Morality/Values should be a major component of this curriculum as well, included with the facts and figures of the timeline.
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That is my question really, why not benefit from post 18th century political campaigns also?
 
DDD said:
What would be included in "BASIC, CORE?" Also why can't "art, music, gym, technology education" not be included in "BASIC, CORE" courses?
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The "art, music, gym, technology education" shouldnt be compulsory but they should still be an option. If you can draw/paint/whatever do art if not-dont.
 
MaggieD said:
If a high schooler reads at a 5th grade level, he will not need advanced math.
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That's not necissarily true. Also, you are referring to a unique case. In most cases, students are performing at or above where they should be. Why should these students be denied a broad education to prepare them for potential future careers? Specialized education occurs in College depending on the needs of the chosen career.

Furthermore, I find the general disdain for education from the right to be disturbing.
 
DDD said:
But then you may risk "distracting" them from their main course again
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The moment they fall behind in the core classes, they get pulled out of the elective classes and placed in the necessary tutoring sessions or remedial classes to get them back up to speed in the core curriculums.

DDD said:
That is my question really, why not benefit from post 18th century political campaigns also?
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They would, as they are part of the basic timeline of history; and in a comparative sense the European and American models would have to be discussed.
 
Our educational system is so low for a number of reasons. Political interference - The government wants to show the public they are doing something about education so they implement mandatory testing every six seconds. Instead, our educational system should be teaching practical applications and critical thinking in the ciriculum. The teachers have no time because of Federal and State mandates to try and engage the kids in any kind of purposeful activities which might spark their curiosity and interest.

The other issue is parental involvement. I will bet that those countries that have higher ratings than us have for lack of a better term mandatory parental involvement. Its a basic principle that the more the parents and kids are involved in the educational process the better the child does.

Another issue (using Germany as an example) is that from 5th grade on the kids are evaluated so that by the time they are ready for the equivelant of high school, the team (parents, kids, and teachers) know where the child is as far as capabilities go. This would require dual track educational pathways for high school kids. Instead of teaching non college bound kids college required courses (as is done here) they get courses (including vocational) which prepare them for the outside world and jobs.

It would also be nice if the core ciriculum were standardized so that what is taught as a core in Cal is the same as in Fla

Lastly, Teachers need to become educators again. There is a difference
 
JRog said:
That's not necissarily true. Also, you are referring to a unique case. In most cases, students are performing at or above where they should be. Why should these students be denied a broad education to prepare them for potential future careers? Specialized education occurs in College depending on the needs of the chosen career.
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No, they are NOT performing at or above their grade levels. If they were, we wouldn't have the number of incompetent and unskilled students getting high school diplomas every year. You cannot build a broad structure when the core founation is weak. The more you cantilever off of the main structure, the more that poorly designed foundation is taxed and eventually fails.
 
Tigger said:
First off, how do you expect the student to learn algebra when he can't even do basic multiplication and division without a calculator. Secondly, by the middle school level you have a pretty good idea who your college-bound students are compared to those who will have their name on either the front or back of their shirts at work, and those who will likely never hold a legitimate job to begin with. By that point in time, you can (and most places do to some degree) start categorizing and focusing their education; so long as they have mastered the fundamentals in elementary school.
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I don't think either of your points is particularly accurate. In middle school, students are not fully matured. You cannot determine which are college-bound at that point nor can you determine which career path they'd enjoy or in which they'd excel. Also, the use of a calculator in basic mathematics is not a sign of poor math skills. Have you ever considered that the base education is higher now because the ceiling is also higher? Since mathematics and science are much more complex, and there is a greater body of knowledge out there, it is necessary to expand the basics.
 
JRog said:
That's not necissarily true. Also, you are referring to a unique case. In most cases, students are performing at or above where they should be. Why should these students be denied a broad education to prepare them for potential future careers? Specialized education occurs in College depending on the needs of the chosen career.

Furthermore, I find the general disdain for education from the right to be disturbing.
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Maybe you should have more distain for our education system. Maybe you would if you actually "got it."

Florida, 50% of high schoolers don't read at grade level:
PolitiFact Florida | Half of Florida's high school grads can't read at grade level, says Bill Proctor

Naperville, Illinois -- the highest achievement school district in Illinois -- 29% unprepared for college reading level.
Chicago Public Schools By The Numbers | The Windy City YR

Chicago Public Schools -- 79% of 8th grade students not proficient at reading.
U.S. Department of Education: 79% of Chicago 8th Graders Not Proficient in Reading | CNS News

I could go on listing links all day long.
 
Tigger said:
No, they are NOT performing at or above their grade levels. If they were, we wouldn't have the number of incompetent and unskilled students getting high school diplomas every year. You cannot build a broad structure when the core founation is weak. The more you cantilever off of the main structure, the more that poorly designed foundation is taxed and eventually fails.
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Unfortunately, the performance of students is brought down by funding and lack of focus on education. How can our education system thrive when a large portion of the political ideology of our country celebrates ignorance?
 
MaggieD said:
Maybe you should have more distain for our education system. Maybe you would if you actually "got it."

Florida, 50% of high schoolers don't read at grade level:
PolitiFact Florida | Half of Florida's high school grads can't read at grade level, says Bill Proctor

Naperville, Illinois -- the highest achievement school district in Illinois -- 29% unprepared for college reading level.
Chicago Public Schools By The Numbers | The Windy City YR

Chicago Public Schools -- 79% of 8th grade students not proficient at reading.
U.S. Department of Education: 79% of Chicago 8th Graders Not Proficient in Reading | CNS News

I could go on listing links all day long.
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Go ahead and do it all day. I think you'd find the poorest performing schools are those which reside in city areas with poverty. Hard to expect good performance from school children when they have unstable home lives as both parents are working and they're still barely scraping by enough to pay for food or healthcare. Poverty = higher crime and lower education. What do the countries ahead of us have significantly in common? STRONG SOCIAL PROGRAMS including EDUCATION SPENDING.

Honestly, it's comical that a political ideology attempts to pull away social spending and education spending, villanizes education as "elitist", and then complains about how poor our schools are.
 
JRog said:
Unfortunately, the performance of students is brought down by funding and lack of focus on education. How can our education system thrive when a large portion of the political ideology of our country celebrates ignorance?
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It's not education funding. The United States average is 20% higher than Finland. Education Matters: So, how DID Finland do it?
 
Tigger said:
They would, as they are part of the basic timeline of history; and in a comparative sense the European and American models would have to be discussed.
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You mean reciprocating so as European history courses cover USA ones? That is not necessary. Though I would like that and my point is not about covering each countries histories, my point is that World History as is taught to USA students from the USA perspective should cover more in depth the USA successes that it had here in their involvement with WW1, WW2, Bosnia, Croatia, Kosova, etc. These achievements are success stories that I think both Europe and USA may benefit from being retold in common USA based World History classes.
 
JRog said:
I don't think either of your points is particularly accurate. In middle school, students are not fully matured. You cannot determine which are college-bound at that point nor can you determine which career path they'd enjoy or in which they'd excel. Also, the use of a calculator in basic mathematics is not a sign of poor math skills. Have you ever considered that the base education is higher now because the ceiling is also higher? Since mathematics and science are much more complex, and there is a greater body of knowledge out there, it is necessary to expand the basics.
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Are you telling me that at the 7th and 8th grade levels you didn't have a pretty good idea which of your classmates were college material and which were likely to be working the Slurpee machine at Seven-11?

If you need a calculator to add 154+225, you've got a major problem. The ceiling has gone up but the floor still remains where it has always been. The problem is that instead of a ladder or stairs we put these kids on an escalator so they reach the top whether they're actually capable of getting there on their own or not.
 
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