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Thread: Education

  1. #21
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    It's not that they know so much, as that they know the wrong things. They can hack the school department's website but they can't find the subject in a simple sentence or compute basic figures.
    so, they can problem solve but you are disappointed that they don't know rote
    curious, what education level have you attained?
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
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  2. #22
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    I'll give you a couple examples.....

    My father taught Industrial Arts on the middle and high school levels. He had constant battles with his department head because he preferred to teach the students in his woodshop class to use the hand tools rather than the multi-thousand dollar drill presses, table saws, etc... His reasoning.... "These kids are not likely to ever have access to a table saw or drill press after they leave this class. On the other hand a handsaw and drill are things they may have access to and the opportunity/need to use in their lives." Yet, he was forced to take valuable class time to teach these students how to use a machine they'll likely never see again.

    How many of the students who are trying to "comrehend" Romeo and Juliet can't even read the prose version of the story, nevermind the verse one because they were never required to actually be able to read the words, nevermind understand what they mean.

    I work in an Engineering related field. I haven't found a single incidence in my 18 year professional career where I would have ever used Trigonometry or Calculus, yet we force many high school students who will never even go into a technical field to take at least one of those classes. Often when the basic algebra and geometry they've just taken isn't even properly comprehended.

    We have students who can't perform basic elementary school tasks who are taking elective gym and art classes while still being unable to find the verb in a sentence or compute 62+47.
    If one were to know on which areas would the student have access to in their future then perhaps the education system would arrange courses specifically for what they may need for their better future. But not only is it that the future is unknown and that courses on all directions are taught so as some may be used in their future, but even if it were known the student may not like that particular chosen future or may simply change their mind.

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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    so, they can problem solve but you are disappointed that they don't know rote. curious, what education level have you attained?
    You missed the point entirely. They are often capable of utilizing advanced abilities in very specific skill sets but often cannot show even rudimentary competency levels in basic skills like language, math, history, or basic science. More often than not they have almost no life-skills, morals and values, or common sense. Personally I believe these basic skills are much more important than the advanced, specific abilities.

    It's great to be able to rebuild a car engine, but it's not terribly helpful when you can't write up the bill to give to the customer at the end of the day, or your language skills are so bad that you can't maintain any customer satisfaction.

    I have an Associate of Science Degree in Computer Aided Design and Drafting (CADD) from Johnson & Wales University (class of 1994). Since then I have worked for a Structural Engineer, a Commercial Architect, and for the last dozen years at the third largest Gas & Electric Utility company in the United States.

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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    If one were to know on which areas would the student have access to in their future then perhaps the education system would arrange courses specifically for what they may need for their better future. But not only is it that the future is unknown and that courses on all directions are taught so as some may be used in their future, but even if it were known the student may not like that particular chosen future or may simply change their mind.
    Which is why the BASIC, CORE knowledge needs to be the primary focus. Until those BASIC, CORE skills can be show repeatedly there should not be access to other things like art, music, gym, technology education, etc.....

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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    From Finland's model:



    Trying to teach 50% of students that which is irrelevant to them rather than that which will help them succeed in life is part of our problem, in my opinion.
    Yes, we used to track here. It is also often a mistake. Many students here are too young to really know. Take what they see as the easy way. I was tracked as the weak mind strong back type. I'm actually strong both ways.

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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    Which is why the BASIC, CORE knowledge needs to be the primary focus. Until those BASIC, CORE skills can be show repeatedly there should not be access to other things like art, music, gym, technology education, etc.....
    What would be included in "BASIC, CORE?" Also why can't "art, music, gym, technology education" not be included in "BASIC, CORE" courses?

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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    I'll give you a couple examples.....

    My father taught Industrial Arts on the middle and high school levels. He had constant battles with his department head because he preferred to teach the students in his woodshop class to use the hand tools rather than the multi-thousand dollar drill presses, table saws, etc... His reasoning.... "These kids are not likely to ever have access to a table saw or drill press after they leave this class. On the other hand a handsaw and drill are things they may have access to and the opportunity/need to use in their lives." Yet, he was forced to take valuable class time to teach these students how to use a machine they'll likely never see again.

    How many of the students who are trying to "comrehend" Romeo and Juliet can't even read the prose version of the story, nevermind the verse one because they were never required to actually be able to read the words, nevermind understand what they mean.

    I work in an Engineering related field. I haven't found a single incidence in my 18 year professional career where I would have ever used Trigonometry or Calculus, yet we force many high school students who will never even go into a technical field to take at least one of those classes. Often when the basic algebra and geometry they've just taken isn't even properly comprehended.

    We have students who can't perform basic elementary school tasks who are taking elective gym and art classes while still being unable to find the verb in a sentence or compute 62+47.
    None of that is really a problem with knowing too much. It's a matter of sequencing.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Yes, we used to track here. It is also often a mistake. Many students here are too young to really know. Take what they see as the easy way. I was tracked as the weak mind strong back type. I'm actually strong both ways.
    Yep, that's typical. Nothing in a successful model that disagrees with education in America today "works," according to teachers.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    What would be included in "BASIC, CORE?" Also why can't "art, music, gym, technology education" not be included in "BASIC, CORE" courses?
    English, Basic Math, American & World History, Basic Science. Think about the things you were supposed to have learned by the time you got out of elementary school and that should cover most of it.

    My concern is that we have kids at the elementary school level who are spending time in art, music, and gym who should be spending that time doing remedial work on their reading, writing, math, history, and science lessons. Once we get to the middle and high school level, where these kids often have some say in their course selections and schedules it gets even worse. Art, Music, Gym, etc.... should be a reward for those students who are able to keep up with their other classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    None of that is really a problem with knowing too much. It's a matter of sequencing.
    It's not a sequencing issue when the core information is never required to be proven that it has been mastered in the first place.

  10. #30
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Yes, we used to track here. It is also often a mistake. Many students here are too young to really know. Take what they see as the easy way. I was tracked as the weak mind strong back type. I'm actually strong both ways.
    we should adopt the tracking method
    much like germany's three tiered system
    where the student (and hopefully the student's family) identify the track which works best for the student
    does the older student plan to further his education at a university
    or does the student intend to enter the work force upon graduation without significant technical education
    or does he opt to receive a technical education combined with an apprenticeship program
    one size does not fit all
    and it should be the student, not the school, which makes this selection

    the OP makes his case against being too educated, which is like saying one can be too fit, too wealthy, too attractive or too personable. it's just not possible
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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