Walmart workers demand better wages

TurtleDude said:

having studied Labor history I can tell you it was an effort by northern white unions to prevent black labor coming North from out competing overpriced union labor

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That, and southern white families didn't like that black youths were working for lower wages to circumvent the racism of the day, those youths simply played the value of the market to their advantage. As a counter those same white families used leverage to eliminate the advantage of lower pay so that their kids could demand the originally desired wages.

j-mac said:

Not with 23 million unemployed in this nation....I have a feeling that the jobs would be filled within a week.

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That's if they can't complete all their calls quickly enough. A week seems like a worst case scenario.

Kal'Stang said:

When it comes to pay the only "right" that a worker has is to get paid $7.25/hr. I have no problem with workers demanding a safer environment because they DO have that right. But when it comes to pay higher than the minimum wage? They had better be worth it. Not only in skill but also in work ethic, experiance, and attendence. No worker has a right to get paid more than $7.25/hr unless the minimum wage gets raised via Congress.

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Worth it? Why is only the CEO's worth unchallenged? Worth is negotiated.

Well...the discussion in this thread has gone round and round with quite a few forays into off-topic land, but when it all comes down to it my post from very early on is still the bottom line:

"Demand in one hand and poop in the other...and see which one fills up faster"

VanceMack said:

Viva hard work in building a successful global empire. In addition to that figure, i cant help but wonder how many people are invested that stock, how many managers have gone from unskilled employees to relatively well paid and successful individuals, how many charities they have funded, college scholarship programs they have funded, etc etc etc.

That Sam Walton was a smart guy. Looks like a whole lot of win win win and not a small amount of competing whine whine whine.

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If people would read Sam Walton's book they would realize something, he as a CEO worked harder at all stages of his career than any of those employees asserting they "deserve" more. Just sayin'

cpwill said:

Bingo, and not that long of a run, either. Switching from the horse and buggy to the automobile wiped out the buggy/whip industry, the blacksmith industry, the farrier industry.... and gave us the auto industry, the drive-through industry, and a dozen others only possible because of automation. Modern Luddites are no wiser than their forebears.

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Slight correction, the blacksmith industry simply became the welding/metal fabricating industry, a necessary component of the industrial age.

Kal'Stang said:

Mandrigan? I binged it but all I got was "did you mean mondrian" and a bunch of hotels named Mondrian. Must not be that successfull if they don't show up in a simple one word search.

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Its Mondragon, 7th largest Spanish Company, largest in the Basque region, and extremely successfull, and a giant cooperative.
I spelled it wrong my bad.

Kal'Stang said:

I'm going to assume that you meant to put the word "don't" in there because otherwise it doesn't make sense. If that is what you meant then I agree. But it does prove a point doesn't it? If they closed up shop then 1.4 million people would be without a job and making NOTHING. So obviously they're more important than you think.

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Err no, if The shop unionizes the capitalist makes LESS profit, but he'll still make money so he'll still keep it open, the only time they shut down the stores is if they have thousands of stores and one unionizes and they shut it down to make an example, even though its profitable, but you can get around that through coordinated efforts.

Kal'Stang said:

Also I would like you to answer a question that you did not answer before. If the Walkers jobs are so unimportant and anybody here on these forums could do them...why don't you have a similar buisness making the same amount?

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Because I didn't inheret it .... And I don't have a giant amount of Capital.

Kal'Stang said:

I've no idea what the German industry is like. I'm not German, I don't live in Germany so I don't really care what thier industry is like.

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Because hopefully you're thoughtful, poit is German industry is EXTREMELY unionized, to the point to where half of the board of directors are directly chosen by the workforce ... yet Germany is one of the industrial superpowers of the world.

AliHajiSheik said:

I've never heard the term "democratic economy." What does it mean/how would it work?

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There are many different ways you could have that, cooperatives, co-determination, public locally accountable industry/services, and so on and so forth.

Bobcat said:

we have a democratic economy. supply and demand are democratic principles. what you want is a socialist economy.

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That isn't a democratic economy, we have a plutocracy, i.e. an economy run by the rich, it's one dollar one vote, and whoever has the property makes the rules.

I wnat an economy which is one person one vote, a socialist economy IS a democratic economy, by definition.

Also no one disagrees with supply and demand principles, it's just who controls the supply and who makes the demand, the answer to both of those questions in capitalism is the capitalist and the people with the most money, the socialist answer is the people democratically.

RGacky3 said:

That isn't a democratic economy, we have a plutocracy, i.e. an economy run by the rich, it's one dollar one vote,

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Interesting. Then it you must be fully aware of the fact astounding fact that American consumers voted for Walmart about 419 Billion times in 2011 alone.

Where else (other than Walmart) might you advise your fellow countrymen to cast those nearly half a trillion votes per year?

Answer thoughtfully, for it could change the social fabric of the nation for the better...

OpportunityCost said:

German industry is doing so well because they have a reputation based upon quality workmanship and brand integrity that is second to none. Their profit model per item is higher because of this. Especially in the auto industry.

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Yeah .... and the reason that they have that is because of the leadership system, instead of looking at short term profits they look at long term viability and workmanship, and that is because the board is run half by the workers, who have a much more long term stake in the buisiness than liquid shareholders, they also stop outsourcing and they make sure that the benefits go to the workers and not just to profits.

Neomalthusian said:

Interesting. Then it you must be fully aware of the fact astounding fact that American consumers voted for Walmart about 419 Billion times in 2011 alone.

Where else (other than Walmart) might you advise your fellow countrymen to cast those nearly half a trillion votes per year?

Answer thoughtfully, for it could change the social fabric of the nation for the better...

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The marketplace works in the sense that you're trying get the most for the least for yourself, and you're forced to ignore the externalities, especially when workers have less and less disposable income, they are going to go for the cheapest .... However if you put it to a poll, most would vote that the US would be better off if Walmart was unionized, and infact many workers WANT to join unions but cannot.

But I'm saying one dollar one vote, is NOT democracy, thats not the way I want an economy run, I want it one person one vote.

Harry Guerrilla said:

This, in no way, is comparable to an abusive spouse relationship.
That's actually pretty insulting to those who have been through real abuse.

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I knew I was wasting my time the moment I typed "the least you can do is try to understand it." It should have been obvious to me that you set your bar a little lower than the point of comprehension. I was comparing the psychological reasons that compel people to stay in a situation that is detrimental to their long term well being and I made that clear.

The people who work at Walmart work incredibly hard. I was there on Thursday night and I saw hundreds of people running around the store and I remember working in retail (and the time a coffee shop I worked at ran a promotion where they gave away free blended drinks which was traumatic) and it's amazing what those people do. You've deflected a lot of other people's opinions but aren't eager to offer up your own. Why do Walmart employees stay there? Do they like their jobs? Do they deserve whatever they get because they can walk out the door at any time and find a new job, but they don't?

I've already shared my opinion as to why they stay there. But whatever the reason is, this much is clear - they work extremely hard, they are the foundation of Walmart and they deserve to have a voice and fair compensation. Also, while I think most Walmart employees want more in life than what they've got, some of them simply don't care about getting rich, but that doesn't mean they're forfeiting their right to speak up for themselves. They shouldn't live knowing they'll lose their house if their child gets cancer just because they don't make enough money to afford a top shelf health care policy.

Boo Radley said:

Worth it? Why is only the CEO's worth unchallenged? Worth is negotiated.

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It's the CEO's company. No one else's. It really is as simple as that.

Lets put it this way. Lets say that you hired a mechanic to fix your car. They give you a fixed amount of how much the job will cost. Part cost and hourly cost. What would you do if half way through the job the mechanic told you that he wouldn't finish fixing your car unless you agreed to pay him 30% more? Same amount of work to be done, nothing new added beyond that of him simply wanting more money for the job.

Kal'Stang said:

This shows a decided lack of knowledge of things that Wal-Mart does for its employee's.

1: Thier employee's get pretty darn good benefits...Wal-Mart health benefits and financial benefits

2: Employee's do get vacation time and sick time which are seperate from each other.

3: Thier employee's and dependents can also get scholarships...Wal-Mart and education

Edit: Btw, I should also note that those health and financial benefits were offered when I worked there long before Obamacare came around.

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Here's a story about their (not so) wonderful health care coverage

And they offer scholarships. They should offer assistance to a large percentage of their employees and not just a few select ones. Saying Walmart employees can get scholarships is like saying that you can win the Powerball jackpot (you'd be more likely to get a scholarship I'm sure but you get the point)

And not all Walmart employees get vacation time and sick time. In fact, here's a depressing article about their policies regarding paid time off.

Full-time associates can earn 2 personal days and approximately 6 days of sick pay a year. The sick pay can be used for a personal or family illness. After two years, they receive two weeks paid vacation. So...18 paid days off per year, plus holidays.

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Wow, 2 days paid time off a year?! Sign me up! And let's not pass up the most important thing of all. The average employee there makes less than 9 dollars an hour. So even if they work 40 hours a week, they'd make just over $1,000 a month after taxes and if they are on the health care plan, almost all of their money would go toward paying rent.

These are the people who work at the store with a $450 billion dollar revenue this year.

RGacky3 said:

Because I didn't inheret it .... And I don't have a giant amount of Capital.

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Forget the rest of your post. This right here says it all. Simply envy.

You do know that Mr. Walton Sr. did not have a giant amount of capital when he started right? He started from one single store and grew it into the empire that is now Wal-Mart and Sam's Clubs. Yeah his kids may have inherited it but they still are keeping it going and expanding just like thier father did before them. It might be easier for them to keep it going and expand on it than it did thier father but that is irrelevent. Simply inheriting something does not mean that you have the capability to keep it.

Kal'Stang said:

Forget the rest of your post. This right here says it all. Simply envy.

You do know that Mr. Walton Sr. did not have a giant amount of capital when he started right? He started from one single store and grew it into the empire that is now Wal-Mart and Sam's Clubs. Yeah his kids may have inherited it but they still are keeping it going and expanding just like thier father did before them. It might be easier for them to keep it going and expand on it than it did thier father but that is irrelevent. Simply inheriting something does not mean that you have the capability to keep it.

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A: They don't "keep it going" an army of managers and executives do, also they already ahve a model.
B: The same argument could be made pro-monarchy ... just because its hard to achieve a certain kind of power doesn't justify the power.

RGacky3 said:

Because hopefully you're thoughtful, poit is German industry is EXTREMELY unionized, to the point to where half of the board of directors are directly chosen by the workforce ... yet Germany is one of the industrial superpowers of the world.

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So what you're saying is that is how thier economy is made. How can you really compare that to the US which has a far larger population, land mass, and a different set of values? Just because something works somewhere else does not mean that it will work in another area. Tell me, are the union bosses in Germany as greedy as the ones here in the US? Or do they actually think about the consequences of thier actions?

Kal'Stang said:

So what you're saying is that is how thier economy is made. How can you really compare that to the US which has a far larger population, land mass, and a different set of values? Just because something works somewhere else does not mean that it will work in another area. Tell me, are the union bosses in Germany as greedy as the ones here in the US? Or do they actually think about the consequences of thier actions?

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Where are you getting this greedy union boss thing? Where are the Union bosses on the furtune 500? Also it works in Germany because its a good idea, and they are forced to think of the consequences BECAUSE THEY ARE DEMOCRATICALLY ACCOUNTABLE!!!

Guess what, when Unions were strong in America, we had a strong middle class and strong industry as well ...

There is nothing genetically that makes germans better than americans, its the system.

RGacky3 said:

A: They don't "keep it going" an army of managers and executives do, also they already ahve a model.

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Yet they still have to make decisions that only they, as the owners are allowed to make. As for the "they already have a model", your purposely ignoring what thier father had to go through to build that company. Why is that?

RGacky3 said:

B: The same argument could be made pro-monarchy ... just because its hard to achieve a certain kind of power doesn't justify the power.

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Except that the difference between a monarchy and Wal-Mart is that people willingly sign on to join Wal-Mart and are able to quit if they want.

Kal'Stang said:

Yet they still have to make decisions that only they, as the owners are allowed to make. As for the "they already have a model", your purposely ignoring what thier father had to go through to build that company. Why is that?

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Because we arn't talking about their father .... Also even IF they work hard, they don't get their money from their work, they get it from controlling capital, if it is from their hard work then put it up to a vote, if they are really indispensible to the company the workforce would vote them compensations that are comprable to what they get now ....

We have examples of this in cooperatives, managers generally get paid somewhat more, but not nearly as much as they do when they choose their own compensation in capitalist firms.

Except that the difference between a monarchy and Wal-Mart is that people willingly sign on to join Wal-Mart and are able to quit if they want.

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Doesn't change the point. BTW, you can move out of a monarchy if you want.

Mustachio said:

Here's a story about their (not so) wonderful health care coverage

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Nothing new here. Any buisness, big or small, would do the same thing.

Mustachio said:

And they offer scholarships. They should offer assistance to a large percentage of their employees and not just a few select ones. Saying Walmart employees can get scholarships is like saying that you can win the Powerball jackpot (you'd be more likely to get a scholarship I'm sure but you get the point)

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1: How many other private companies do you know offers thier employee's scholarships?
2: Wal-Mart doesn't even have to offer any scholarships. There is no reason that they should have to offer it at all.

Mustachio said:

And not all Walmart employees get vacation time and sick time. In fact, here's a depressing article about their policies regarding paid time off.

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Considering that Wal-Mart doesn't have to pay an employee sick time at all I'd say that this is pretty generous. Nor does Wal-Mart have to pay vacation time. I do not get paid vacation time, nor do I get 2 weeks off for vacation in my first year. I do after 2 years but I still don't get paid for that time off. What's the difference between me and those that work at Wal-Mart?

Are you under the assumption that people have a right to get paid for thier sick days when they are not providing any service to the company? Or during vacation time? See thats the difference between my position and yours. You want them to get paid for them doing nothing. I want to get paid for doing something and have nor problem for not getting paid when I don't do something.

Mustachio said:

Wow, 2 days paid time off a year?! Sign me up! And let's not pass up the most important thing of all. The average employee there makes less than 9 dollars an hour. So even if they work 40 hours a week, they'd make just over $1,000 a month after taxes and if they are on the health care plan, almost all of their money would go toward paying rent.

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That 2 days is personal days. It does not include sick time or vacation time. And if its by the year then that would be 4 days, not 2.

Mustachio said:

These are the people who work at the store with a $450 billion dollar revenue this year.

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If those people want to make that much per year then perhaps they should start thier own buisness?

OpportunityCost said:

Conflating the two makes his point. Congratulations.

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if the point is that working at Wal Mart is little better than a root canal then perhaps he did make that point. Sadly, the root canal - once done - is over while the drone like WM job keeps hurting day after day after day. So perhaps we should change it to a series of never ending root canals.

Boo Radley said:

No, it doesn't. What you speak of would raise employee salaries, skilled workers, and not CEO pay, not at the level we're speaking of.

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That is incorrect. The shift to a globalized information-driven economy has not really effected the shelf stocker job. It has massively effected the CEO job. Both are paid according to their value added, and one just happens to have what this economy will leverage far more.

They are largely over rated and need a sound work force, without show we've seen them fail. Interesting though that you'd try and make excuses for the foolish practice of overpaying them.

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If knowledge workers were overrated, then they would not be getting paid the way they are en masse. Though it is interesting that you think that you have greater subject matter expertise and knowledge than the combined knowledge of millions of directly-involved decision makers.