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Thread: Walmart workers demand better wages

  1. #861
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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Yes, we. If the work force wanted trained individuals, they'd make sure they had them. As a nation, if we valued education of this sort, people would be educated so. While you're trying to suggest I'm taking individual responsibility away, you're wrong. We all hold individual responsibility. And nothing takes that away. But we also hold communal responsibility. As a community, we can make it easier or harder. Left up to nothing but the individual, fewer will get there. We know that. It's how the bell curve works. So, when we have not enough, as you suggest, all of us, including business can throw up our hands and say, too bad. Or we can act to help increase the number. It's not socialism. It's not removing personal responsibility. And it is kind of silly to suggest either, Instead it is merely problem solving. Something good CEOs do.
    Actually, many business and professions do want trained individuals. There are shortages of Nurses, Engineers in some fields, Doctors in some specialties and in many other fields. However they don't go out to a high school and hand out scholarships to kids that say they want to pursue a profession. Instead, they wait for the individuals with the drive and discipline to achieve a basic skill set before they fess up the cash for schooling. Companies hire Engineers and scientist from schools every year and pay for their education up to Doctorate levels. Some healthcare companies/hospitals pay all or some of the student loan debt to attract desirable skilled nurses and doctors. Car Companies spend Billions sending technicians to specialized and advanced training. But in almost each and ever case, except the military, those individuals are the top performers in their chosen field during school and put forth the effort to achieve basic skills first. Many, Many companies offer educational opportunities for those who wish to move up in a company. But, the individuals must show potential, loyalty and good work habits first. They must choose as individuals to build the foundation upon which more can be built.

    By "communal responsibility" I can only assume you are referring to basic schooling K-12. That is a whole topic in and of itself and generally, making things easier does not return the best results. But since the decline of that institution, Public Schools, is directly caused by policies pursued and implemented by your Liberals, we need to change liberal thinking about education before we can actually fix education.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobcat View Post
    the union decline in the textile and shipbuilding industires was because those jobs no longer existed---the union destroyed those jobs by making those industries unprofitable in the USA.
    No ... the Union decline happened AND THEN those jobs moved ....

  3. #863
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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    They are democratically accountable here in the states too. The union bosses get elected. Problem being is that people are too stupid or too partisan to actually look at the truth. So the same union bosses keep getting elected over and over and over. Just like politicians.

    And yes they are greedy. This was evidence by the fact that 18,000 employees lost thier jobs while them union bosses still have thier jobs. After all, a Union often covers more than just one company. If they had actually cared about the employees then they would have allowed them to go back to work before the deadline. They may not get the billions that Wal-Mart or the like get, but they still get more than their average worker.
    .
    There are many problems that exist in many unions democratic process yeah ...

    As far as them being greedy because they were not fired .... Union bosses are not employed by the people that fired those workers ... they are elected, the Union bosses didn't fire those workers.

    As far as them getting more than the average worker, as I said ... that doesn't equate greed and its democratically acountable. As far as going to work beforethe deadline, thats industrial action strategy, its difficult, and they didn't win in that situation.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Of course you don't want to talk about thier father. It would quite easily show that your position was wrong if you did.
    No it wouldn't, that would be a different discussion.

    And there are different types of work. There's the kind of work that uses your back and arms every day. There's the mental kind of work that may not drain you physically but certainly drains you mentally...and can even be more dangerous than physical work. I doubt very seriously that you could handle a corporation like Wal-Mart.
    Sure ... but they arn't being paid for mental labor, they are being paid for just controling capital, if they do management work, its fine to get compensation for that, but just owning capital isn't labor, and most of their money comes from just controlling capital.

    And no vote is needed. They are not a democracy. And besides, mob rule should NEVER be followed. Mob rule tramples peoples individual rights. Which is far more important than collective rights.
    Thats bull****, it's not individual rights vrs collective rights ... Corporations are not individual entities, the are social entities and economics is a social activity, also its not mob rule, unless all democracy is mob rule, the difference is monarchy, i.e. either everyone in the corporation has a say or it's just the boss, i.e. democracy vrs dictatorship, this has nothing to do with individual rights, that's a strawman.

    What about the individual right of the worker to have a say about what happens to the wealth he helps produce ... The point is a boss will pay himself the most amount possible and the workers the LEAST amount possible, thats not a meritocracy, a democracy is much of a meritocracy.

    They why don't those managers chose thier own compensation? There is nothing saying that they have to work were they get payed less. All they have to do is ASK for more or find another job. Just like any other employee.
    Because the work in a cooperative ... I don't get you're point?

    Not always. Not to mention you don't have to move to quit a job and find another.
    You have to move from the place where you spend most of the day ... yeah.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    And when they compile their demands not on what is best for the long term outlook on their own jobs, but rather what goodies they can force the company to cede to them, whether or not it would hurt the company in the long run, they take the very ignorant, short sighted view, and later end up without what they bargained for....Ask Hostess, Ask Bethlehem Steel, Ask any of the former union members now on the line with nothing but a $50 stipend from the union, and a "gee we're sorry".... Suckers.
    You know what I find more funny than anything else, employers don't complain when their benefits package becomes inefficient, they simply price the market for better options for their employees, they don't piss and moan when it comes time to sign the paycheck for their employees, but yet the employees always gripe about work hours, their paycheck, benefits, etc.

    Seems to me in this economy employees should be happy with employment right now. In fact, last thing, the employers suffer most when the market is down.......rarely does the pay reflect in that, rarely are there pay cuts but rather less employees and less hours per........that's life, and it's life in a down market especially.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    One thing that I've grown to be pissed off about is the term "liveable wage". Is there a more subjective economic term out there?

    Apparently people are upset that a minimum wage job doesn't necessarily allow them a house, a new car in the driveway, and vacations every year.
    apparently some people are upset that a janitor doesn't have the same standard of living as a brain surgeon
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    No one is forced to ignore any externalities. Man your arguments sure do require some hard spin.
    You are not literally forced, but it's kind of game theory, its only a negative to pick up the externality for yourself unless everyone else does it as well, which takes massaive collective effort.

    If people are stupid and hypocritical enough to lambaste Walmart for cost-minimizing at the same time as they SHOP AT WALMART to cost-minimize, then I could give a **** what they vote in some imagined poll about unionizing Walmart.
    Here is the mind of a conservative ... can't put 2 and 2 together and figure out. They see something they don't directly understand and they assume its just peoples personal failings.

    Workers do not go for the cheapest just because of their dwindling disposable income. They go for the cheapest because it is rational. Raise their minimum wage and they will still deal-seek. It is in everyone's rational best interests to maximize benefit while minimizing cost. So yeah, let the morons think that unionizing Walmart will make the country better. At the very best it would result in no gain. All their prices for "the cheapest" will rise, so they will be paying directly for that idea, and will be no better off. In fact they'll be worse off because they can buy less Asian-made plastic ****.
    It is rational .... but it leads to externalities that ruin the economy, externalities that no one wants, but it is irrational to take into account unless everyone else does. Also its been shown over and over again that the prices would not rise significantly and that the wage increases would outweigh ANY price increase (a price increase that probably won't happen), and we have empirical evidence for unions raising living standards.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    apparently some people are upset that a janitor doesn't have the same standard of living as a brain surgeon
    And we get back to the supply and demand of labor. I can always find a janitor, brain surgeons are few and far between. The brain surgeon has a much better chance at being a good janitor than the other way around in a job switch.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    They are whining because they are working a low skilled job for decent wages, given an opportunity to advance where they would NEVER had such opportunities, and now want more. they think they are 'entitled' to more. Sorry...no dice. Low skilled retail jobs universally pay about the same whether you work for Dans Dime Store, Maverick, or WalMart. You dont get to bleat on for higher pay because the owner of the store is successful.

    YOU on the other hand are free to hire as many of them as you like and pay them whatever the **** you want. And you should. Now. Go and do.
    They are demanding better treatment and wages from one of the most profitable, and most rich companies in the world.


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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    You know what I find more funny than anything else, employers don't complain when their benefits package becomes inefficient, they simply price the market for better options for their employees, they don't piss and moan when it comes time to sign the paycheck for their employees, but yet the employees always gripe about work hours, their paycheck, benefits, etc.

    Seems to me in this economy employees should be happy with employment right now. In fact, last thing, the employers suffer most when the market is down.......rarely does the pay reflect in that, rarely are there pay cuts but rather less employees and less hours per........that's life, and it's life in a down market especially.

    My Father ran his own business my entire life (RIP).....I never heard him complain about paying his employees even when times were tough. In fact it was in those times that he fretted more about their welfare.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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