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Thread: Walmart workers demand better wages

  1. #1451
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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Yes .... And Greece was wrong to do that, as was spain ... when you deregulate the financial industry that's what happens.



    Choices and decisions are always made with the backdrop of the insitutional framework ... and you, as a worker, you'd have much more choice and much more market power in the workplace if the institutional framework with economic democracy.

    But you're happy just with the ability to choose masters ... thats fine.
    Greece and Spain aren't the only two countries doing poorly. France is headed in the same direction, just no one is talking about it until Greece gets its **** together.

    I think you're missing the obvious.... by definition if you are "choosing" a master, he/she is not a master.

  2. #1452
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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    I'm using Socialism as a broad term to call what was advocated from Bakunin to lenin, from St. Simon to Social Democrats and so on .... What they ALL have in common is an idea that the economy should be run for the good of the public or controlled by the workers, i.e. economic democracy.



    The whole thing of the State doesn't work, because you're ignoring the majority of socailists, which are left-libertarians, anarchists, cooperativists, syndicalists, market socialists and so on, who don't see a major role for the state ... Also the Marxian definition of socialism is very specific and used very sparingly, and doesn't really fit the broad definition.

    The closest correct definitnios are the Oxford one and the Wikipedia one, although I would'nt use "ownership" since you want to be philisophically accurate, since what most socialists advocate isn't social "ownership" as the word is used in Capitalism, but rather socail control .... WHich is basically democracy, i.e. the American public doesn't "OWN" American ... but through the democratic process (at least in theory) they control the policy.

    As far as the democratic party ... I don't know anyone who is calling for social control of the means of production and distribution or anything like that, the only thing I can think of are those who advocate a public bank, which is very few, and single payer, again very few ... and although those are "socailist" policies, one could say, they are ones that are accepted by most of the world, especially single payer.

    As far as Obama ... He's not only not a socialist he's a neo-liberal ... he did everything to make sure the financial system stayed fully private and mostly unregulated, his healthcare was the opposite of socialist, it was corporatist, hell al the peopel he has in his economic team are the same people Bush had, plus the freaking CEO of GE ... Yeah ... because a socailsits would bring in executives from Goldman Sachs and General Electric into his top economic team.

    Well, then I would have to conclude that you are NOT a socialist either, but rather a run of the mill anarchist with collectivist overtones. Neither of which are working, sustainable paths for a country of 350 million. First off it is like herding cats, Second, nothing would get done with every individual wanting a say in every decision that must be in a country as large as ours. Third, it stifles innovation, and retards wealth and investment, as well as grinds the wheels of what makes a country run to a trickle which would turn this country into a third world cesspool.

    I must ask, seeing your answer, are you, or were you part of OWS? I only ask because you seem to say many of the things we heard from them.

    Look, I understand that many in the 20 somethings want something different because they went to school, did what adults told them was the path to the American dream, so they got good grades, got out, and because of influences in collage, coupled with the slow collapse of generations of progressivism that have chipped away at what this country was, it not only is harder to achieve, but in some cases, like that of the collage grad that got an overpriced degree in Bolivian Basket Weaving, or Womens studies, now finds that no one wants, or is able to hire him/her and now owes that money, at 23 yrs old, and has to move back into mom's house for the foreseeable future because it was a lie for the school to hike that money for a degree in nothing.

    Hell, I'd be pissed too. But that doesn't mean that the balance structure of how America works is wrong, or needs to be significantly changed. It just means you made a bad decision.

    I have to stop here to get ready for work, but I'll think about it some more and get back to you.
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  3. #1453
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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    NO.... insurance companies are protected by the government, not the free market.

    Malpractice insurance is a result of individuals being greedy and lawyers abusing the lack of knowledge about the human body and pathophysiology among the general population (jury).

    Getting rid of one requires less government regulation, getting rid of the other would just a result of completely restructuring our civil court system, which we definitely need to do.
    EVERY company is protected by the government ... Capitalism exists because of the government. Also enough with the free market nonsense, there is no such thing, its a nonsensicle concept.

    Malpractice insurance is part of the market as well.

    Get rid of regulations on healthcare and guess what ... insurance companies still run the show because most people simply don't have that kind of money on cash.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    Greece and Spain aren't the only two countries doing poorly. France is headed in the same direction, just no one is talking about it until Greece gets its **** together.

    I think you're missing the obvious.... by definition if you are "choosing" a master, he/she is not a master.
    We'll have to wait and see for France, but it seams like the "socialist" (anyone that looked into his past would see he's like a French obama, i.e. left in elections, but rules to the center-right), is following the same old austerity programs but just neo-liberal lite.

    Then goverments are not masters since you can move out.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Well, then I would have to conclude that you are NOT a socialist either, but rather a run of the mill anarchist with collectivist overtones. Neither of which are working, sustainable paths for a country of 350 million. First off it is like herding cats, Second, nothing would get done with every individual wanting a say in every decision that must be in a country as large as ours. Third, it stifles innovation, and retards wealth and investment, as well as grinds the wheels of what makes a country run to a trickle which would turn this country into a third world cesspool.

    I must ask, seeing your answer, are you, or were you part of OWS? I only ask because you seem to say many of the things we heard from them.

    Look, I understand that many in the 20 somethings want something different because they went to school, did what adults told them was the path to the American dream, so they got good grades, got out, and because of influences in collage, coupled with the slow collapse of generations of progressivism that have chipped away at what this country was, it not only is harder to achieve, but in some cases, like that of the collage grad that got an overpriced degree in Bolivian Basket Weaving, or Womens studies, now finds that no one wants, or is able to hire him/her and now owes that money, at 23 yrs old, and has to move back into mom's house for the foreseeable future because it was a lie for the school to hike that money for a degree in nothing.

    Hell, I'd be pissed too. But that doesn't mean that the balance structure of how America works is wrong, or needs to be significantly changed. It just means you made a bad decision.

    I have to stop here to get ready for work, but I'll think about it some more and get back to you.
    Whatever you want to call me, most Socialists follow basically my line of thinking.

    Also what you're talking about is nonsense, and the same arguments against political democracy ... people vote in WHAT EFFECTS THEM, so not everyone has to voet for every single thing, and there are plenty of concrete policies that socialize the economy ... co-determination, cooperatives, public industry, public services, and so on. Also it doesn't stifle innovation ... most innnovation ALREADY comes from the not for profit sector and the public sector, nor does it retart wealth and investment, it just changes the source and incentive for investment, also it attaches wealth to actual social benefit.

    As far as grinding the wheels tell that to the social-democratic Northern Europe, or the Latin American countries that are bringing people out of poverty with social-democratic policies.

    OWS isn't an organization btw, but I support and supported them.

    Also the bull**** you're writing about college students getting a degree in Bolivian Basket Weaving or Womens studies ... Did ALL the young people start taking those classes after 2007? Did everyone happen to take dumb degrees just at the same tiem (by coincidence) when capitalism fell into crisis???? Or MAYBE .... Its systemic issues, and not just that people have become dumber after the recession ...

    This is what cracks me up about Capitalist apologists ... CEOs pay go up 300%, corporate profit sky rockets, 15% poverty poverty grows unemployment grows the middle class shrinks .... and they all coincide with neo-liberal reforms ... yet ... the capitalist apologists will put ALL OF IT to individual merits ... i.e. Executives suddenly became smarter and better, and everyone else got dumb and lazy ... Its such a rediculous point of view.

    Its akin to the Soviet Union hacks arguing that the problems in the USSR were not systemic, no, it was because the people had a petty-bourgouis attitude, or they had gotten lazy ... NO the USSR failed because of the system and Capitalism is failing BECAUSE OF THE SYSTEM.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Yeah, but she should stand by her principles.
    And that would be to demand what she wants not what she deserves. BH Obama's primary campaign theme was that wanting is the same a deserving and he won the hearts and votes of those who don't know the difference.

    Its such a rediculous point of view.
    So how long do you thing that the dam was broken before the lake rushed down the valley??

    President Bush ran for president to be an education president because we all saw the total collapse of our education system come under the progressive ideas that drive the teachers' unions. But 9/11 put him on a war footing and education is still suffering. You want to talk about CEOs and forget that teachers make more pay every year while our kids fail at higher and higher rates.
    Last edited by Iron River; 12-07-12 at 09:09 AM.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    When educators start doing their darn jobs, instead of indoctrinating our youth to churn out future socialists, then I'll support them more.

    How about this Joe, you support this?:
    J, no one supports that, nor is it anyone teaching anyone anything. Unions are not in the classroom teaching. Also, just because you can find stupid doesn't make it the norm. Why some don't know this escapes me. It's a flawed argument on your part.

    The overwhelming majority of educators do their damn job. People feeding their heads with misinformation and from mindless partisan and ideological sources rarely know what reality is. Ironically, those who read and buy into these sources are indoctrinated by idiocy and don't even realize it.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    Well.... how can they make health care costlier, and make it more affordable at the same time?
    Again, you limited yourself to HMOs. I still don't know why. We know, UHC systems pay less. Have better access.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Again, you limited yourself to HMOs. I still don't know why. We know, UHC systems pay less. Have better access.
    You were the one who was saying that we wouldn't be able to afford healthcare without insurance?

    But either way, we spend more on public health insurance per person than any other country as well.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    We'll have to wait and see for France, but it seams like the "socialist" (anyone that looked into his past would see he's like a French obama, i.e. left in elections, but rules to the center-right), is following the same old austerity programs but just neo-liberal lite.

    Then goverments are not masters since you can move out.
    They have to go through austerity because their social programs spent all their money.....

    And you chose to move out of the U.S.

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