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Thread: Walmart workers demand better wages

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Seems to me your moving to a different issue. Direct me to where i said HMOs were more efficient. I said there would be people who would not be able to afford healthcare absent insurance (third party payers).
    Well.... how can they make health care costlier, and make it more affordable at the same time?

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    [QUOTE=Fisher;1061220361][QUOTE=ReformCollege;1061220089]
    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    It depends on how much I was making. I am self-employed these days via a few different enterprises. In my worldview, labor is the most significant cost that is malleable.

    Or apparently go to college for all those years, take on all the debt, and become down-trodden doctors. Not every job is a career job and not every employer is one who has a duty to provide for you for life just because you are capable of pushing buggies across the parking lot. These are low skill jobs that merit low wages. It is an incentive for people to seek out better jobs and acquire the skills to get them. Lord forbid somebody take some risk or initiative when they can live forever off the backs of those who did take risks and show initiative if they whine loud enough and often enough to politicians who want to buy their support with other people's money.
    Well at least your consistent. I probably would've trashed you like no tomorrow if you honestly think that the one of the highest skilled professions is overpaid and the most uneducated jobs is underpaid.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    If doctors were state employees they might just enjoy some immunity.
    I just don't understand why it has to come to that. But a single payer system would be better than what we have now, and sure as hell would be 1000 times better than what Obamacare is going to bring us.

    But, I'd personally much rather doctors run the show, considering they are.... you know... the actual health care experts.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    Because if I were getting an insane amount of dough for writing prescriptions, I might would be willing to take a pay cut. It isn't like I never do anything for free or at a loss out of the goodness of my stone-cold heart. If student loans are a burden and that burden could be removed by taking less pay over a career then it seems like a sound exchange to me.
    If you are getting an insane amount of dough for writing prescriptions, you are probably committing fraud.

    Its not like I was ever suggesting that we shouldn't combat fraud. Primary care doctors should be paid based on how many patients they have and how much time they spend with their patients. A primary care doctor can still make $200,000 a year by simply charging 800 patents $50 a month for unlimited visits, after you take other expenses into account. It might get more complicated with severe treatments, but I'm confident we can figure out ways to make it affordable for everyone if we eliminate insurance companies out of the picture and lower the number of patents being submitted into urgent care in the first place by utilizing better primary care. What we may end up getting... is a network of doctors acting like what we call an insurance company, but it would be at a lower cost due to less spending on paperwork/bureaucracy/overhead etc.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    Thats what happens when you play with fire.
    Yes .... And Greece was wrong to do that, as was spain ... when you deregulate the financial industry that's what happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    I do have a say in those decisions. I can say, "my value is more than that, so I will find other work." If I choose to continue to work there, then that is defined as a choice to go along with the decisions being made. And if they choose not to listen to what I have to say, then either I have not made myself valuable enough to have a say or it is up to me to hold myself to a higher standard and seek employment elsewhere.

    I do not have to literally vote on my own salary to have a say in how I am paid.
    Choices and decisions are always made with the backdrop of the insitutional framework ... and you, as a worker, you'd have much more choice and much more market power in the workplace if the institutional framework with economic democracy.

    But you're happy just with the ability to choose masters ... thats fine.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    It was also rejected by the Republican Party as a whole. And I agree with them, it is corporate welfare to insurance companies, something Democrats are supposed to be "against."

    Those procedures would be less costly without the wasteful spending on insurance companies and malpractice insurance. Plus, because primary care and pharmaceuticals can be provided at a cheaper rate without the insurance companies, those costly procedures would be a lot less neccesary.
    The republican party rejected it on political grounds, not ideological ... They rejected it because Obama proposed it, but they all were FOR it a couple years earlier ... Personally when Obama scrapped single payer and then fought AGAINST the public option, thats when I realized he was 100% full of ****, He was no better than a republican that doesn't hate gay people, thats basically it.

    You're not gonna get me defending Obama care, I oppose the mandate. Insurance companies and malpractice insurance are all part of the capitalist market, so I don't know what your complaining about ... unless you're calling for more government regulation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    It isn't the service that is costly, it is the excessive regulations, fraud, and expensive malpractice costs of the service that is driving up costs. Single payer isn't an awful idea in my opinion, its just not as good as having the doctors running the show.
    Doctors DO run the show under single payer ... its just that cost isn't part of the factor.

    What drives up the cost are things like intellectual property, pharmecutical cartelization, the profit motive, insurance gouging, and so on, almost all of it is internal to the capitalist market.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    No, not really, you are way too vague to have any relevance with that sort of snarky answer...I am asking because when the argument is at its hight, those like you that think they know what they are talking about, tend to arrogantly tell those of us arguing against you that we don't understand what socialism is....So I asked. Not surprising that you gave an answer that in any philosophy class would earn you an "F" for uttering such a simplistic, and wrong answer.
    I'm using Socialism as a broad term to call what was advocated from Bakunin to lenin, from St. Simon to Social Democrats and so on .... What they ALL have in common is an idea that the economy should be run for the good of the public or controlled by the workers, i.e. economic democracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Now, in any of those three definitions that I laid out for you, do you see anything in there that is the movement of the hard leftists in the democrat party, and or Obama are aspiring for? I sure do if not all of it.
    The whole thing of the State doesn't work, because you're ignoring the majority of socailists, which are left-libertarians, anarchists, cooperativists, syndicalists, market socialists and so on, who don't see a major role for the state ... Also the Marxian definition of socialism is very specific and used very sparingly, and doesn't really fit the broad definition.

    The closest correct definitnios are the Oxford one and the Wikipedia one, although I would'nt use "ownership" since you want to be philisophically accurate, since what most socialists advocate isn't social "ownership" as the word is used in Capitalism, but rather socail control .... WHich is basically democracy, i.e. the American public doesn't "OWN" American ... but through the democratic process (at least in theory) they control the policy.

    As far as the democratic party ... I don't know anyone who is calling for social control of the means of production and distribution or anything like that, the only thing I can think of are those who advocate a public bank, which is very few, and single payer, again very few ... and although those are "socailist" policies, one could say, they are ones that are accepted by most of the world, especially single payer.

    As far as Obama ... He's not only not a socialist he's a neo-liberal ... he did everything to make sure the financial system stayed fully private and mostly unregulated, his healthcare was the opposite of socialist, it was corporatist, hell al the peopel he has in his economic team are the same people Bush had, plus the freaking CEO of GE ... Yeah ... because a socailsits would bring in executives from Goldman Sachs and General Electric into his top economic team.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    The republican party rejected it on political grounds, not ideological ... They rejected it because Obama proposed it, but they all were FOR it a couple years earlier ... Personally when Obama scrapped single payer and then fought AGAINST the public option, thats when I realized he was 100% full of ****, He was no better than a republican that doesn't hate gay people, thats basically it.

    You're not gonna get me defending Obama care, I oppose the mandate. Insurance companies and malpractice insurance are all part of the capitalist market, so I don't know what your complaining about ... unless you're calling for more government regulation.



    Doctors DO run the show under single payer ... its just that cost isn't part of the factor.

    What drives up the cost are things like intellectual property, pharmecutical cartelization, the profit motive, insurance gouging, and so on, almost all of it is internal to the capitalist market.
    Might I remind you, that health insurance in your country wouldn't be possible without OUR pharmaceutical companies.

    But I generally agree that insurance gouging is to blame. Insurance companies really add nothing, except they are able to monopolize and rig the system to drive up costs by forcing people to buy it.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    Might I remind you, that health insurance in your country wouldn't be possible without OUR pharmaceutical companies.

    But I generally agree that insurance gouging is to blame. Insurance companies really add nothing, except they are able to monopolize and rig the system to drive up costs by forcing people to buy it.
    ANd pharmaceutical companies all over ther world. (Btw, they arn't YOUR pharmaceutical companies, they have no loyalty to the United States at all, nor does their wealth benefit the UNited States at all).

    And those pharmaceutical companies would'nt exist without publically funded research, and patents and so on, and would be much better run as publically accountable not for profit companies.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    You're not gonna get me defending Obama care, I oppose the mandate. Insurance companies and malpractice insurance are all part of the capitalist market, so I don't know what your complaining about ... unless you're calling for more government regulation.
    NO.... insurance companies are protected by the government, not the free market.

    Malpractice insurance is a result of individuals being greedy and lawyers abusing the lack of knowledge about the human body and pathophysiology among the general population (jury).

    Getting rid of one requires less government regulation, getting rid of the other would just a result of completely restructuring our civil court system, which we definitely need to do.

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