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Thread: Walmart workers demand better wages

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Sure...so can a non-unionized labor force...as in the differences in pay we experience now in all fields.
    The pay "gap" between men and woman is generally overstated. Adjusted, its only 4.8%-7.1%
    http://www.consad.com/content/report...l%20Report.pdf

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    The pay "gap" between men and woman is generally overstated. Adjusted, its only 4.8%-7.1%
    http://www.consad.com/content/report...l%20Report.pdf
    Sure...if you were paid less due to something non-related to your performance like the color of your skin or your gender I'm sure you' would be find since it's only 4.8%-7.1%...but that is a different topic.

    You were making some assumption that it either doesn't exist in non-unionized workforces and would if unionized or that it would increase due to unionization. Some pretty large unbased insinuations.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Sure...the difference being the power dynamic between management and low skilled labor when labor acts as individuals compared to when it organizes.

    As for lawyers collectively bargain on their behalf. This lowers the gap in information as well.
    No.... the fact is labor unions will use the entire labor force, to bargain for the interests of maybe only 20% of its worker's. Walmart workers should be allowed to organize, but it should still be a worker's right to work without union intervention. And union's shouldn't be able to protect unproductive workers from being fired, simply because they pay into the union. If Walmart's workers are treated bad enough to where more workers are leaving the company than they can hire back, and workers are allowed to publically voice their opinions so other people can make more informed decisions about Walmart.... that's really the only bargaining power they need. Low-wage (low-skill) workers hold a very powerful weapon against their employers, which is the ability to cause negative PR.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Sure...if you were paid less due to something non-related to your performance like the color of your skin or your gender I'm sure you' would be find since it's only 4.8%-7.1%...but that is a different topic.

    You were making some assumption that it either doesn't exist in non-unionized workforces and would if unionized or that it would increase due to unionization. Some pretty large unbased insinuations.
    I thought you were talking about individuals bargaining for their individual wages... my bad.

    Not defending the 5% difference, its just a lot less then the completely overstated 20%, which is simply bad statistics because it doesn't take other observable variables into account.

    But someone's performance is purely subjective. What you consider to be good hard work, I might consider being lazy and just doing the bare minimum. Or vise-versa. Depends on your standards.

    But as for that 4.8-7.1% remaining difference... I do wonder if the reason its unexplainable is because its the fallout of the other 15% due to explainable variables; I.E. more seniors in a business are men rather than women. As the population of women workers starts to age, and more women continue to move up in the work force... and more of the male senior workers start to retire.. women will start to be more represented in all levels of a business, and 4.8-7.1% actual discrimination will also decrease.
    Last edited by ReformCollege; 12-04-12 at 06:10 PM.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    Not defending the 5% difference, its just a lot less then the completely overstated 20%, which is simply bad statistics because it doesn't take other observable variables into account.

    .
    Sure...I'm not a fan of bad statistics either.

    But someone's performance is purely subjective. What you consider to be good hard work, I might consider being lazy and just doing the bare minimum. Or vise-versa. Depends on your standards.
    Of course, that's definately true, but generally there are some sort of output measures tracked for employees that management agrees are important and a viable measure of perfomance.

    But as for that 4.8-7.1% remaining difference... I do wonder if the reason its unexplainable is because its the fallout of the other 15% due to explainable variables; I.E. more seniors in a business are men rather than women. As the population of women workers starts to age, and more women continue to move up in the work force... and more of the male senior workers start to retire.. women will start to be more represented in all levels of a business, and 4.8-7.1% actual discrimination will also decrease.
    I'm sure it's explainable without individuals being devious and wanting to hurt minorities and woman financially. I'm actually pretty sure it has more to do with basic human psychology and who maybe the partner or manager takes a liking to that's more culturally like him with the same interest.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    No.... the fact is labor unions will use the entire labor force, to bargain for the interests of maybe only 20% of its worker's. Walmart workers should be allowed to organize, but it should still be a worker's right to work without union intervention. And union's shouldn't be able to protect unproductive workers from being fired, simply because they pay into the union. If Walmart's workers are treated bad enough to where more workers are leaving the company than they can hire back, and workers are allowed to publically voice their opinions so other people can make more informed decisions about Walmart.... that's really the only bargaining power they need. Low-wage (low-skill) workers hold a very powerful weapon against their employers, which is the ability to cause negative PR.
    I don't agree that individuals should be able to work if not in the union. The whole free rider principle definately is the reason.
    Unionized workers have better benefits and pay compared to non-union workers. There's a benefit in working in business that bargains for a union. Generally the bargaining is for all workers not just union workers.

    As for the protection of unproductive workers. Sure...I think that's a bad practice. I think honestly individual workers are the first to realize when someone doesn't carry their weight. Sure...union protections are good. Managers shouldn't be able to live as tyrants and hire and fire on a whim. I'm pretty sure that's the reasoning for contracts that have those protections. I do think overall it's not for the benefit of the managers or workers to protect unproductive workers.

    If Walmart's workers are treated bad enough to where more workers are leaving the company than they can hire back, and workers are allowed to publically voice their opinions so other people can make more informed decisions about Walmart.... that's really the only bargaining power they need. Low-wage (low-skill) workers hold a very powerful weapon against their employers, which is the ability to cause negative PR.
    Wal-Mart has had negative PR for decades. That's exactly what a union does. The workers organize and with one voice state they will leave and publicly voice their opinions.

    A job is much more important to a worker than a worker is to a boss. That's just truth. A worker is feeding his family with the paycheck. The worker is just replacable unskilled labor. That power imbalance and the dying of unionized labor in this country is a big reson (in my view) of stagnant long term wages.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    I don't agree that individuals should be able to work if not in the union. The whole free rider principle definately is the reason.
    Unionized workers have better benefits and pay compared to non-union workers. There's a benefit in working in business that bargains for a union. Generally the bargaining is for all workers not just union workers.
    This is far from the truth, first unions take out of the employee's pocket money, called union dues. Second unions have been losing membership for decades. The only place left for unions is in government employ, and that because liberal legislators purchased their vote by giving the union what they wanted in exchange for their vote.

    As for the protection of unproductive workers. Sure...I think that's a bad practice. I think honestly individual workers are the first to realize when someone doesn't carry their weight. Sure...union protections are good. Managers shouldn't be able to live as tyrants and hire and fire on a whim. I'm pretty sure that's the reasoning for contracts that have those protections. I do think overall it's not for the benefit of the managers or workers to protect unproductive workers.
    Unions are extremely protective of your members, look at the teachers union, you cannot fire an incompetent, no good for nothing teacher. period. This was again all agreed to by liberals giving the unions what they wanted in exchange for their vote.

    Wal-Mart has had negative PR for decades. That's exactly what a union does. The workers organize and with one voice state they will leave and publicly voice their opinions.
    Walmart has not had negative PR. Walmart employees have not wanted a union, as a union will steal some of their money in union dues. There are people in line waiting for a job at Walmart and if it's employees are so abused they would try to unionize, but they don't want a union.

    A job is much more important to a worker than a worker is to a boss. That's just truth. A worker is feeding his family with the paycheck. The worker is just replacable unskilled labor.
    Here I agree with you. And why do they work at Walmart? It's because that's all Walmart needs is unskilled labor. Unskilled labor is all over the US, they are uneducated, unskilled, unreliable, many are elderly that can't get any other job, some mentally disabled that could not find a job other than Walmart, and many have no work ethic. Thus unskilled labor is glad to be hired by Walmart and have a job, and for the unreliable ones when they show up.

    That power imbalance and the dying of unionized labor in this country is a big reson (in my view) of stagnant long term wages.
    The power is in the individual and his/her skills they bring to the market place. You want to remain unskilled that is your individual choice, you want to drop out of school and not be educated, your choice. You don't like getting up and showing for work 5 days a week, you choice. You want to be a lazy bum at work, your choice. There's a reason there is unskilled labor in this country. The individual that develops his/her skills will advance, even at Walmart.
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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    We're discussing the wage increase on the cost to consumers here so we're assuming that profit remains equal.
    If the full brunt of a wage increase (which isn't likely) is a hit to consumers the price increase will equal like 40 cents an average shoppers visit to Wal-Mart.
    I don't get the impression you understand what we're talking about.

    Their sales (about $447B) is what is known as gross income. That is basically what they take in at the register before they pay cost of goods, labor, taxes, maintenance, etc. Net income, what is left over when everything has been paid for, is what you want to look at when you're determining if something can be afforded. Walmart operates with thin profit margins so while they have taken in $447B they are left with $16B after all expenses. A company's net income isn't the property of the CEO or any other executives to do as they please. This is money that is either re-invested or returned to shareholders through a dividend.

    I'm not really sure what kind of wage increase you're looking for. A $2/hour raise for Walmart's 1.4M employees works out to about $6B which is about 38% of their net income! They just couldn't absorb losing 38% of their net income.

    I don't know where you're getting $0.40 a visit from. I'm just not sure how you can calculate it accurately. There are about 115M households in the United States. Not all of them shop in Walmart and the ones that do tend to be from the lower income brackets but if you divide the $6B cost between 115M households evenly it comes out to about $52. That's not a tremendous amount of money but that's just Walmart.

    If every single retail store, fast food chain, etc. gave their employees a $2 raise it would add up very significantly.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    That power imbalance and the dying of unionized labor in this country is a big reson (in my view) of stagnant long term wages.
    Wages have been stagnant overall because other forms of compensation are going up; healthcare being the clearest example. Labor is losing ground faster because they're just far less valuable than everyone else and unions won't change this. It's easier and cheaper to automate or outsource when labor pushes too hard.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    I don't agree that individuals should be able to work if not in the union. The whole free rider principle definately is the reason.
    Unionized workers have better benefits and pay compared to non-union workers. There's a benefit in working in business that bargains for a union. Generally the bargaining is for all workers not just union workers.
    This also gives the union the power to protect current employees at the expense of new employees, and use the entire union's bargining power on behalf of the interests of a minority of the union... etc. etc.

    If you want to force people to pay into the union fine, but only under two conditions 1. Unions cannot make campaign contributions and 2. Unions cannot force workers to participate in strikes.

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    As for the protection of unproductive workers. Sure...I think that's a bad practice. I think honestly individual workers are the first to realize when someone doesn't carry their weight. Sure...union protections are good. Managers shouldn't be able to live as tyrants and hire and fire on a whim. I'm pretty sure that's the reasoning for contracts that have those protections. I do think overall it's not for the benefit of the managers or workers to protect unproductive workers.
    Isn't that what they are paid to do? Manage? If they are hiring/firing on a whim, it'll hurt their overall productivity and performance.
    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Wal-Mart has had negative PR for decades. That's exactly what a union does. The workers organize and with one voice state they will leave and publicly voice their opinions.
    Which is fine, but they still shouldn't be able to force all their workers to strike, if they don't agree with what the union is striking about.
    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    A job is much more important to a worker than a worker is to a boss. That's just truth. A worker is feeding his family with the paycheck. The worker is just replacable unskilled labor. That power imbalance and the dying of unionized labor in this country is a big reson (in my view) of stagnant long term wages.
    The big reason... is the remainder of way too much replaceable unskilled labor during a time where our country needs skilled, un-replaceable labor.

    Besides, I have to wonder why is it anyone but the worker's fault that they are unskilled? That doesn't sound like something a labor union can solve.

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