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Thread: Walmart workers demand better wages

  1. #1351
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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    1. No, not since I say it isn't socialism, due to the definition of socailism ... As it ALWAYS HAS BEEN. Property rights protects those with property, property rights should be and are subservient to social concerns.

    2. I'm not gonna make a semantics argument about revolution. Labor is worth what it produces, also mutual exchange only happens within the context of the UN mutual property and capital disparencies, also its not about forcing the employer to do anything, its about changing the employer employee relationship, I'm supporting a system where it isn't up to a capitalist whether or not buisiness activity happens.

    3. Europes problems are happening to those countries that followed a neo-liberal route and abandoned socail democracy. Socialism doesn't slide into autocratic rule, LENINISM IS NOT SOCIALISM. Capitalism being a plutocracy is by definition true, who controls the resources and capital and thus power? Those with the most money, i.e. plutocracy.

    You're right the kings didn't change via-election ... so what? Neither do Capitalists.
    1. No they should not. Russia and China are both defined as socialist. Sorry you dont see it that way or like it but they are. Socialist totalitarian regimes, but hey, I warned you thats where socialism goes.

    2. Your entire stance is contradictary jargon. Capitalists are the ones that take the risks to make business happen. Without risk takers, there is no business. You want a capitalist system run for the benefit of the unions and workers---ok, whose money will you steal to create businesses and whats to stop government from taking it and making slaves of the workers if they feel like it? Once government can grant that sort of power, they most certainly can take away whatever they like.

    3. No. They are happening because they are not financially viable social spending. You run out of other people's money. If people open a business and work at it and make it successful, they then control more money and resources. If 4 workers get together and open a business, guess what? They are then capitalists. Your stance is demonization and rationalization of taking from others to satisfy some need you seem to have to take from those you see as rich.

    From where this conversation is going you seem to be one of those dreamer socialists that just think government can start confiscating and keep the businesses running. Government doesnt run much of anything very well for very long.

    Capitalists cant forcibly take anything from someone else, they have to earn it. They are not elected officials, they are not Kings, they earned their command of resources and money--they did not forcibly take it. You seem to see business owners as evil entities that never earn anything. They arent angels but if there is no incentive to make a business successful there wont be any businesses to confiscate anything from.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    1. There has never BEEN a socialist country, but countries that have implimented socailistic reforms have done better than countries that havn't, including in the first world, like Northern Europe vrs the US.

    Not even close....So the answer is NONE....I thought so.

    2. That's a strawman, I'm not arguing for Leninism ... Capitalism is enforced by a gun, thats how Capitalist property laws are made, and if you look at the history of Capitalism, it was accomplished through the barrel of a gun.

    Define Socialism for me.
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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    I can post whatever the **** I want to within the rules of the forum. If you post stupid crap, you can expect someone to take you to task for that bad posting.

    Tell me something, if you make a terrible argument that contributes nothing to conversation, how are you adding to debate or intelligent discussion?
    Nobody told you otherwise but you saw another cheap opportunity to continue your obsessive quest because you are frustrated you could not get me infracted with your previous petty complaints.

    Of course I expect you to criticize me --- its what you have done repeatedly in the past even when you have to make it up as you go along. So this is no surprise.
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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Donahue View Post
    Most big box retail companies operate on very narrow profit margins and make their money from having thousands of stores. These companies can't raise wages without significant cost increases, layoffs, store closures, and reduced hours. At some point the increase in costs make it completely unprofitable to operate a company in the United States, businesses shut their domestic operations, and move to another country.

    A sandwich maker lucky enough to keep his job after wide eyed college students "help" him won't be any closer to living a better life because of the increased costs at the register. It will just mean the guy who worked next to him is fired while prices go up on everyone else. We go through this literally every single time wide eyed college students think they're the first people to suggest an increase in minimum wage.
    If a store like walmart increases to 12 per hour across the board it would cost Wal-Mart 2.3 billion. That's 1% of company sells of 305 billion (2011).

    As for shutting down and moving their domestic operations...that's not possible when we're talking the retail and service industry.

    Even if 100% of the cost of a wage increase was passed to consumers (which it most likely wouldn't) then the average shopper would pay 12.50 more a year in their shopping bill.

    Not exactly the doom and gloom scenario's or job killing numbers the Wall St Op-Ed page would like you to think.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    So you see a retail boom?

    Well in order for that to occur we need jobs outside of retail, which are the jobs that could potentially facilitate a "retail boom."

    People need jobs, and the only way people can create a "retail boom" is if they have money to spend... Right now the job market is "depressed" to say the least...

    IMO, the only reason why - otherwise skilled individuals - are taking retail jobs is because they have no choice, they have to do something to put food on the table.

    So with that said, there is no "retail boom" there is a bunch of people willing to do anything - even outside of their trade/skill - to put food on the table.

    Hell, one of my cousins graduated with a degree in physics from MIT, you know what he does? he creates pop-up ads. The kid could work for NASA, yet he is stuck taking a remedial job...

    IMO, in this economy people will take what they can get just so they can eat.

    Retail is not a career, but where the hell else are these people supposed to work?

    This economic **** is some kinda trap..... Crying over Walmart salaries will only make the problem worse.
    I don't see a retail boom. In fact what I'm stating is exactly what you're talking about. The rising service sector is a long term trend where other sectors have been decreasing and service has increased.
    service_graph-2.jpg

    It's not just this economy, it's a long term trend for US employment and the for a very large portion of US citizens that will be their job for as long as they live.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    But you ignore the inflation factor, the biggest "tax" of all upon the low wage worker. Higher skilled workers are also paid based somewhat on that "minimum" wage (M) such as M + x, or M * x. If the wages for unskilled/semi-skilled are raised then not only what they produce goes up in cost, but all other wages for providing goods/services will as well - a vicious cycle of inflation would follow.
    It's semi-relational not as ironclad as you state. A 1 dollar an hour increase in the wage for a Wal-Mart employee does not translate to a 1 dollar increase for a everyone higher on the pay scale.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    It's semi-relational not as ironclad as you state. A 1 dollar an hour increase in the wage for a Wal-Mart employee does not translate to a 1 dollar increase for a everyone higher on the pay scale.
    I somewhat agree, but we are talking about two completely different things. I am refering to the nation's minimum wage standard, while I assume that you are refering to one company's entry level wages. But even in that context, if a two year Walmart veteran checker is now getting starting (minmum?) wage + $1/hour, it would seem "unfair" for them not to get that extra $1/hour, as well, since they now have no salary benefit for their added 2 years of experience.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    I somewhat agree, but we are talking about two completely different things. I am refering to the nation's minimum wage standard, while I assume that you are refering to one company's entry level wages. But even in that context, if a two year Walmart veteran checker is now getting starting (minmum?) wage + $1/hour, it would seem "unfair" for them not to get that extra $1/hour, as well, since they now have no salary benefit for their added 2 years of experience.
    Sure, that's a possibility so even throughout walmart wages went up 1 dollar an hour for every employee that wouldn't result in inflation. Even if all salaries for baseline employees increases that wouldn't result in 1 for 1 inflation. It would result in a net benefit for lower paid employees.

    Let's be honest...with food stamps and other programs we are subsidizing their salaries. I stated it in another post. I don't really shop at Wal Mart but my taxes sure as hell subsidize the low prices. If someone is bumped up say over 200% of the poverty line that means less foodstamps and less other governmental programs that they receive.

    We are just moving cost around here not really coming up with new costs. obamacare and Wal-mart now having to provide health insurance is just less individuals depending on Medicaid for themselves and their children. Higher wages is just less individuals depending on food stamps or housing allowance.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    If a store like walmart increases to 12 per hour across the board it would cost Wal-Mart 2.3 billion. That's 1% of company sells of 305 billion (2011).

    As for shutting down and moving their domestic operations...that's not possible when we're talking the retail and service industry.

    Even if 100% of the cost of a wage increase was passed to consumers (which it most likely wouldn't) then the average shopper would pay 12.50 more a year in their shopping bill.

    Not exactly the doom and gloom scenario's or job killing numbers the Wall St Op-Ed page would like you to think.
    Their sales (gross income) has been about $447 billion in 2012 but that is before they pay anything.

    Gross income isn't all that relevant in this conversation. It is net income that matters.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Sure, that's a possibility so even throughout walmart wages went up 1 dollar an hour for every employee that wouldn't result in inflation. Even if all salaries for baseline employees increases that wouldn't result in 1 for 1 inflation. It would result in a net benefit for lower paid employees.

    Let's be honest...with food stamps and other programs we are subsidizing their salaries. I stated it in another post. I don't really shop at Wal Mart but my taxes sure as hell subsidize the low prices. If someone is bumped up say over 200% of the poverty line that means less foodstamps and less other governmental programs that they receive.

    We are just moving cost around here not really coming up with new costs. obamacare and Wal-mart now having to provide health insurance is just less individuals depending on Medicaid for themselves and their children. Higher wages is just less individuals depending on food stamps or housing allowance.
    That still makes no sense, since all other McJob (minimum wage) workers will still mooch off of taxpayer subsidies even if Walmart raised their pay/prices. The only way to make all of the federal "poor" subsidies go away is to raise the minimum wage above the "poverty" wage, which would definitely cause inflation (and massive unemployment). Rinse, and repeat...
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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