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Thread: Walmart workers demand better wages

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    Companies also buy machines to replace workers. They are starting to do more of that here in the central valley. Imigrant labour starting to become too expensive.
    It still takes an employee to operate and maintain a machine... I used to be a machine operator/mechanic... I was part of a union but had no desire to be... Those machines don't run on their own and anyone who knows how to run them and fix them is skilled. I was a CNC operator and out of 500 or so employees only 20 of us could do what I did (run and fix the machines) everyone else tho was pretty much replaceable.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Because I am one.
    Over 5 years in manufacturing and distribution.
    I see ... Why arn't you rich btw? Are you just too lazy or are you too dumb?

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    1. What makes our military successful has more to do with training, re-socialization and culture---the equipment is worthless without the training and the will to use it. Again you want to argue its people when it suits and money when it doesnt suit you.

    2. I am not going to start a debate about Nazi-ism and corporatism being linked. Thats a trap of an argument and its not accurate the way you are attempting to portray it, start a thread if you want. Again, quit trying to Godwin the thread, its exactly where you are trying to steer the argument.

    3. Yeah. You did. Co-determination was created by the US forces trying to bring as much peace and stability to Germany and avoid the labor union dynamic that was taking hold in the US.

    5. Yeah you said its because labor unions get to make more decisions. They dont make more decisions, they give input and make 10% to at max 40% of the decisions. Neo liberal policies are failing all over Europe, Germany is the exception---everywhere else, from France to Spain to Greece, they are failing. So you your argument is they are successful when they are followed by a crash? Thanks for defeating your own argument.
    1. Sonofabitch we're talking past each other here, but you need the equipment first ....

    2. ok then

    3. No I didn't say it was illigal, I said there were policies that prevented it, just like in many cities there are policies that prevent smoking, like high taxes on ciggaretes. Also I find it funny that the US thought Co-determination was such an awesome idea they put it in german and not the US ... thats funny, or maybe I'm right that they wanted to restrict the power of German Capitalists, they thought they were restricting the german economy.

    5. Jeez, THEY HAVE MORE DECISION MAKING POWER, If you start out with 0 votes and you suddenly get 40% of the votes you suddenly have a little more power do you ... Germany doesn't have a neo-liberal policy, also Greece and Spain failed when they started financializing and de-regulating their economy, strong socail democracies are diong well.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    1. Because Russia was always billed as socialism.

    2. That was a trap btw. Fuedalism, lords kept their property rights how? Thats right, through violence and the promise of it. Capitalism doesnt hold onto property rights through guns it does it through the courts and through law, a tad more civil than at gunpoint. Socialism tends to hold onto property through enforced redistribution, how is it any different from capitalism? Its generally government enforced, IE through force or the threat of it.

    You keep trying to say how your idea of socialism is so good but its just different people controlling how things are divvied up.
    1. And what? It was billed that way by RUssians trying to defend theri system, and Americans trying to demonize it. Not by actual socialists.

    2. Courts and law are just mediators between the gun. Also Socialism isn't always government enforced, infact most socialists don't even want to involve the government, they want a revolution where the state doesn't play the role, the workers and communities do.

    The difference is socialism is democratic and cpaitalism is plutocratic, plain and simple, and yeah it is different people, just like the American revolution had different people making the rules, i.e. the people rather than the king.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    I see ... Why arn't you rich btw? Are you just too lazy or are you too dumb?
    Why do you assume that he's not? And what exactly is "rich" to you?
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    And yet those with more responsibility gets paid more....wonder why that is...hmm...
    Who makes that decision? Yeah the CEO ... also did CEOs suddenly get 300% more responsible? And workers -something%



    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    The power is in your work. I've had plenty of jobs where all I did was talk to the correct person, ask for a raise told him/her why I thought I deserved it and got it. Not once have I needed someone else to advocate for me. So sorry but experiance and reality show that a union is not absolutely necessary. And I have NEVER been in a union. Nor would I want to be.

    No. I am saying that honesty and hard work are the best policy. Stand out from other grunts and you will advance. Thats the way it has been for quite some time now.
    We are talking economics, not personal experience, and the fact is OVERALL, less union strength less wages, of coarse its better to be honest and hard working, but its also better to have collective action, but I'm glad you want to just give everything up to the boss.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Thank you for admitting that mental activity is a nessecity and is used. .
    Never claimed otherwise, and honestly its irrelevant


    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Instiutional frameworks is available to everyone...not just the rich and CEO's. You can make just as much use of it as anyone else.

    As for "institutional advantages" I can only assume that you are talking about inheritance in that. But the thing is that doesn't mean crap for anyone else. Mr. Walton himself shows that. Along with lots of other billionaires.
    No, its strict property laws, its corporate policy, its capital gains tax rates, its tons and tons of other institutional frameworks, its limited liability and so on, these things are for buisiness owners.




    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Wait....what happened to Germany? Are you no longer touting them as the best example? Oh well. I would still bet that the US is still richer than "Emilia-Romagna"...Never even heard of that place before so obviously it isn't that famous.
    No, not when you compare living standards, also jstu because you've never heard of it doesn't change anything, I'm not touting Germany as my best example I'm using it as one example. Either way, the evidence is in, in the US poverty is growing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    That's not arguing that at all. If you want an example of how morals affects how people are affected then would you say that blacks are better off economically now than they were when they were slaves? Or when they were segregated and racism was far worse than now? In both cases morality shifted. And they got better off economically than they were before.
    What shifted was institutions, its not like in the 60s white people suddenly became unracist and stopped being douches, no, black people FOUGHT for institutional changes, and overtime those effect the morals.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    No actually they weren't. Most people would actually turn down jobs that they thought were immoral to do. Yes there were plenty of people that were greedy. Thats just the nature of Man. But morals DO change. The very fact that slavery is outlawed in the US should be ample evidence of that.
    What changed slavery was a civil war, not a sudden change of morality.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    The change was not sudden by any means. If you want an example of the difference in morals then take a look at underwear commercials 50 years ago vs today's. And before you get in a tizzy that is JUST an example of the change in morality.
    What changed is the religiosity, power of the church and so on. Look are you really saying that the US economy sucks because people are not moral? And in Northern europe people are simply MORE moral? And its not the institutional framework?



    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    While tribal they were NOT a democracy. You're thinking "tribal" in the sense of the Native Americans. I'm thinking tribal as in Neandrathals. But if you want to go strictly by what is considered "capitalistic" and "socialism" as they are understood today then you are still wrong. Capitalism as it is understood today can be traced back to the Middle Ages. Socialism on the other hand traces its roots to The French Revolution in 1789.

    Wiki ~ History of Capitalism
    Wiki ~ History of Socialism
    I'm talking tribal as in germanic tribes, native american tribes, nomad tribes and so on. Socialism goes way before the French Revolution, the French revolution just called it socialism, just like ideas of liberty go way way beyond the enlightenment. As far as the history of Capitalism, yeah it existed small scale in the middle ages, but not as a ruling system, hell socialism exists small scale now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Socialism is not what makes Germany successfull. Hard work does.
    Yeah ... Germans are just somehow genetically better than Americans ... or just have better morals .... honestly that the dumbest argument.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Why not? If socialism is so great then why hasn't it been implemented? There are plenty of socialistic parties, both past and present.
    You could make that same argument about democracy 300 years ago.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Either way you are advocating the use of something that is used by capitalism. The very thing that you are railing against.
    I wasn't advocating ANYTHING ... do you know the difference between positive and normative economics??? I WAS EXPLAINING HOW CAPITALISM WORKS ... pay attention.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    No it is not. Socialism is where no one but the government owns property and everyone works to take care of everyone else.
    Not according to 90% of socialists ... who I think would have a better say than you do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    And what value do they produce? What product does a stocker produce in order to show thier value? How do you figure this number?
    The stocker produces a system in which products can be sold, I think a better way to figure out value is democratically, rather than dictatorially, i.e. not the CEO chooses (it jst so happens he's worth millions and millions).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Did you really just say this? Wow. No company would allow the CEO of another company on thier board. Thats a sure way to get your ideas stolen. And those idea's make them money. A CEO may move from one company to another but they sure as hell are not on multiple boards in multiple companies.

    As for not investing in the company...your kidding right? IIRC one of Hostess's CEO's invested a little over 100 million dollars in Hostess to keep it from going bankrupt. Yeah, those CEO's may have a "golden parachute" but how do you think they got those parachute's? They educated themselves, worked to make themselves worth the CEO position and negotiated themselves with the right people to get that parachute. They did not need a union to do it either.
    Except for the fact that it happens all the time. Also You're example about Hostess is just one example, most CEO's are not as invested as the workers, without the jobs the workers are in desperate poverty, the CEOs are generally fine.

    They god those parachutes by extracting wealth from workers ....


    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Compared to some yes. I am. To others, nope. See I'm quite comfortable with not making millions. I want enough to pay my bills and pay for a few wants. Beyond that I'm content. I don't want millions for the simple fact that its got more trouble than it is worth. See, I'm not greedy.
    I see, so you COULD be rich you just don't want to be.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Thier job didn't get more easier, it just got more efficient. Indeed the job actually has gotten more complicated. Mostly due to more complicated laws and a more complicated market. Something which workers don't have to worry about.
    If it became more efficient for one person then its necessarily less work, also what new complicated laws? workers have to worry about changes in markets all the time because their ass is on the line, but so you honestly think that CEOs are working 300% harder than 10 years ago? Or producing 300% more value .... or in whatever way you think Capitalism is a meritocracy


    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Yes it did. But not more complicated.
    yes it did ...


    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Dictatorships don't allow for freedoms. So no, I am not for them.
    Seamed like you are in favor of them ... Capitalism doesn't really allow freedoms either, unless you can afford them.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Wrong. Germany is less greedy than those in the US. Though admittedly its possible that thier form of socialistic capitalism could have something to do with it.

    American Phsycholigical Association ~ How greed outstripped need
    Yeah institutions change attitudes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    I never stated that morality was the ONLY factor. But it IS a HUGE factor. So your analogy does not fit.
    And morality is shaped by the institutional framework.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    It is this very social institution which allows you to speak what you want and do what you want with your body...though that last there is debateable...after all you cannot legally kill yourself or take narcotics. But either way your statement does nothing to address my statement that the owner ship of property is a protected right in the Constitution.

    Ah so you're now moving the goal posts because you've been shown that your original ideaology messed with your things. Funny that... So basically it is perfectly OK to demand things from others so long as your things are not among those demands.
    The constitution is not cannon .. nor is it natural law.

    Also property rights are not self autonomy rights, you don't own yourself you ARE yourself, ownership is a relation.

    I'm not moving goal posts AT ALL ... you're just unable to understand arguments.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Why do you assume that he's not? And what exactly is "rich" to you?
    He's a worker ... given you're guy's ideology, he should just start his own buisiness and get rich.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    He's a worker ... given you're guy's ideology, he should just start his own buisiness and get rich.
    So just because he's a worker he's automatically poor? Again, what exactly is "rich" to you?
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    So just because he's a worker he's automatically poor? Again, what exactly is "rich" to you?
    Never said he was poor ... I don't have a metric for what is rich, but if he doesn't consider himself rich, why not?

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    I think you're missing the part about "supply and demand."

    BTW, it's not OK to be an unskilled worker. The reason why people go to learn a skill is to get compensated more - that's the driving force - that's the reason why people go to college or learn a trade - so they get skills that are in demand that pay more than stuffing boxes or stocking a store shelf.

    Walmart pay should inspire people to learn something that is in demand - that pay should tell the individual that they need to do something with their lives -- not -- "I'm perfectly content with this stupid job but I want more money doing it".
    So it's clear you don't work at Wal-Mart. I'll say - for the sake of the argument - that you're a lawyer. If 30 million Americans went through law school and passed the bar in just this year alone, would you expect lawyers to start making $8.00 an hour? Because if supply and demand determine the pay for a give occupation, the level of skill required to perform a given job is irrelevant. Building upon the supposition that lawyers are so abundant they only make $8.00 an hour, at that point it would be a better idea to work at Wal-Mart, as you'll make the same amount of money there but avoid the horrors of student loans.

    Only supply and demand matter, so you better go run and learn the most in demand skill around - graphic design and web development! You're right, cash register jobs are meant for high school kids and college dropouts. One day, you'll only have to explain to your grandchildren why you were so lazy you couldn't even go into the field of graphic design.

    What happened to "you can be anything you want to be" and what happened to going into a field that makes you happy? What about Americans like my uncle, who suffer from mental and/or physical problems that make it hard for them to find employment in many different work environments? Would you tell those people that they don't deserve to earn a comfortable living because so many other Americans can do their job? Would you tell them that they can be easily replaced?

    Here's the real question- if working at Wal-Mart is so easy, why do 70% of their employees quit within a year? I think you should simply go work there for a few months and report back. The bottom line is that working there isn't easy. The turnover rate is so high because they hire people who need jobs, take advantage of them by getting them to work hours that are too long, some of them off the clock, and only have of their employees have health care. Costco covers over 95% of their employees. Anyway, my point is that your comments seem to be pointed at backing up the claim that Wal-Mart is paying and treating their employees the way they deserve to be treated. And I think Americans deserve to make a living if they're working hard and putting in long hours. It's just the right thing to do, and it's also the right thing to do to put our economy back on track.
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