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Thread: Walmart workers demand better wages

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    You are right. 90% is too high of a number but it's still a very large % of individuals that work in low skill low pay jobs.

    Sure there is a skill gap. I'm not advocating a low skilled laborer make as much as a surgeon. I'm advocating they have more power when negotiating wages and benefits with their employers.
    I don't even know what that means. They have every right to demand anything they want but since they're so low skilled and easily replaced there is just no real reason an employer should cave to every demand. I don't really see what the issue is.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    The Wallmart saga is nothing really. Any employee anywhere have to shape up or ship out. Outsourcing is the name of the game now to cut costs. Strikes at the busiest ports at LA and Long Beach is costing the economy a billion dollars each day.

    Economic Impact Of LA And Long Beach Port Strikes - Business Insider

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    First of all, it has nothing to do with responsibility ... It has to do with the Capitalist will always pay himself the most he can, and the workers the least he can. The way it should be is whatever pay you can get, that's the market, its not a meritocracy, it never has been.
    And yet those with more responsibility gets paid more....wonder why that is...hmm...

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Second of all, sitting down and "asking" for more pay because you think you deserve it won't do ****, unless you can back it up with some sort of power, and you can have a lot more of that with a union, the capitalist controls all the capital, so if workers want leverage they need to fight collectively.
    The power is in your work. I've had plenty of jobs where all I did was talk to the correct person, ask for a raise told him/her why I thought I deserved it and got it. Not once have I needed someone else to advocate for me. So sorry but experiance and reality show that a union is not absolutely necessary. And I have NEVER been in a union. Nor would I want to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    What you're basically saying is the workers should just play the game the way the Capitalist wants them too ... Nonsense, you play the game in a way that where you have the highest leverage, thats how capitalists do it, thus that is how workers should do it.
    No. I am saying that honesty and hard work are the best policy. Stand out from other grunts and you will advance. Thats the way it has been for quite some time now.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    mental activity AND institutional frameworks and institutional advantages and so on.
    Thank you for admitting that mental activity is a nessecity and is used.

    Instiutional frameworks is available to everyone...not just the rich and CEO's. You can make just as much use of it as anyone else.

    As for "institutional advantages" I can only assume that you are talking about inheritance in that. But the thing is that doesn't mean crap for anyone else. Mr. Walton himself shows that. Along with lots of other billionaires.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    The senate and congress are examplse of a currupt plutocracy, where the representatives answer to buisiness leaders.
    Nothing more than a talking point.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    also WE HAVE TONS AND TONS OF EXAMPLES THAT WORK AS DEMOCRACIES .... the richest area in europe, Emilia-Romagna, is famous for its cooperatives ...
    Wait....what happened to Germany? Are you no longer touting them as the best example? Oh well. I would still bet that the US is still richer than "Emilia-Romagna"...Never even heard of that place before so obviously it isn't that famous.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Thats rediculous ... thats like arguing that the reason black people are better off now is because black people have better morals now.
    That's not arguing that at all. If you want an example of how morals affects how people are affected then would you say that blacks are better off economically now than they were when they were slaves? Or when they were segregated and racism was far worse than now? In both cases morality shifted. And they got better off economically than they were before.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Thats nonsense, people were just as greedy 50 years ago as they are not, the difference the institutions.
    No actually they weren't. Most people would actually turn down jobs that they thought were immoral to do. Yes there were plenty of people that were greedy. Thats just the nature of Man. But morals DO change. The very fact that slavery is outlawed in the US should be ample evidence of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Or is it that everyone suddenyl got more greedy at the same time the US made neo-liberal reforms, and the reforms had nothing to do with it. Common now.
    The change was not sudden by any means. If you want an example of the difference in morals then take a look at underwear commercials 50 years ago vs today's. And before you get in a tizzy that is JUST an example of the change in morality.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Wrong, just based on facts. the first governments were tribal, i.e. run by elders and relatively democratic, when land became more important you had monarchies and theocracies with mostly command economies, even in major cities like in Rome and greece, markets were not the main distributive method, trading was mainly between societies not within.
    While tribal they were NOT a democracy. You're thinking "tribal" in the sense of the Native Americans. I'm thinking tribal as in Neandrathals. But if you want to go strictly by what is considered "capitalistic" and "socialism" as they are understood today then you are still wrong. Capitalism as it is understood today can be traced back to the Middle Ages. Socialism on the other hand traces its roots to The French Revolution in 1789.

    Wiki ~ History of Capitalism
    Wiki ~ History of Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    As far as Germany, yeah ... its not socialist, but it has a lot more socialistic policies than other places which are a big reason it's successful.
    Socialism is not what makes Germany successfull. Hard work does.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    There has never been a socialist country, you have cooperatives, and areas that were socialistic and countries that implimented socialistic policies, but there hasn't been a socialist country.
    Why not? If socialism is so great then why hasn't it been implemented? There are plenty of socialistic parties, both past and present.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Like I said ITS NOT A SOCIALIST OR A CAPITALIST IDEA .... It's just a fact on how Capitalism works.
    Either way you are advocating the use of something that is used by capitalism. The very thing that you are railing against.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    And yeah, I do know what socialism is, its economic democracy.
    No it is not. Socialism is where no one but the government owns property and everyone works to take care of everyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    No ... its not by what they think they are worth, the metric I'm going by is the value they actually produce, and by that workers by definition don't get waht they are worht otherwise capitalism (profit) would'nt work.
    And what value do they produce? What product does a stocker produce in order to show thier value? How do you figure this number?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Most of the time the CEO isn't that invested in the company, they have investments all over the places and are many times on boards of other companies, they have reall big golden parachutes and a lot less stake in a company than a worker who's livelyhood depends on it.
    Did you really just say this? Wow. No company would allow the CEO of another company on thier board. Thats a sure way to get your ideas stolen. And those idea's make them money. A CEO may move from one company to another but they sure as hell are not on multiple boards in multiple companies.

    As for not investing in the company...your kidding right? IIRC one of Hostess's CEO's invested a little over 100 million dollars in Hostess to keep it from going bankrupt. Yeah, those CEO's may have a "golden parachute" but how do you think they got those parachute's? They educated themselves, worked to make themselves worth the CEO position and negotiated themselves with the right people to get that parachute. They did not need a union to do it either.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    I wasn't arguing that CEO's don't do anything btw.
    You sure did imply it.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Wiat what???? So why are you not rich? Are you just lazy?
    Compared to some yes. I am. To others, nope. See I'm quite comfortable with not making millions. I want enough to pay my bills and pay for a few wants. Beyond that I'm content. I don't want millions for the simple fact that its got more trouble than it is worth. See, I'm not greedy.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Also are you arguing seriously that CEOs got 300% more compensation because their job god easier????
    Thier job didn't get more easier, it just got more efficient. Indeed the job actually has gotten more complicated. Mostly due to more complicated laws and a more complicated market. Something which workers don't have to worry about.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Also technology made workers more productive too ...
    Yes it did. But not more complicated.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Given that I'm taking it you have no problem with dictatorships ... as long as they are benevolant.
    Dictatorships don't allow for freedoms. So no, I am not for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Its not just Germany, its Sweden, Norway, Emilia-Romagna, and other places, the common demoniator is strong Unions and strong social democracies and cooperative ... Not some moral differences.

    People are JUST AS GREEDY in Germany as they are everywhere else, the difference is the institutional frameworks, i.e. the economic system.
    Wrong. Germany is less greedy than those in the US. Though admittedly its possible that thier form of socialistic capitalism could have something to do with it.

    American Phsycholigical Association ~ How greed outstripped need

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Arguing that its just moral differences is moronic, and akin to arguing that black people in America are more poor because they are just dumber.
    I never stated that morality was the ONLY factor. But it IS a HUGE factor. So your analogy does not fit.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    The difference is, I can speak and do what I want with my body without any social isntitution ... I don't own capitalist property beyond my possessions without a social instituion, without that its just a claim as valid as me claiming I'm the king of New Zealand.
    It is this very social institution which allows you to speak what you want and do what you want with your body...though that last there is debateable...after all you cannot legally kill yourself or take narcotics. But either way your statement does nothing to address my statement that the owner ship of property is a protected right in the Constitution.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    The difference is no one relies on my living room for lively hood, nor does my living room affect society. Giant corporations do.
    Ah so you're now moving the goal posts because you've been shown that your original ideaology messed with your things. Funny that... So basically it is perfectly OK to demand things from others so long as your things are not among those demands.
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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Donahue View Post
    I don't even know what that means. They have every right to demand anything they want but since they're so low skilled and easily replaced there is just no real reason an employer should cave to every demand. I don't really see what the issue is.
    Which is exactly my point. One worker is replacable. All your workers organized into a union make up the majority of value added in the production process. Organizing give low skilled workers more power in negotiating wages and benefits. Why wouldn't workers unionize? You've pointed out exactly why employers don't want workers to unionize and why workers should want to unionize.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Which is exactly my point. One worker is replacable. All your workers organized into a union make up the majority of value added in the production process. Organizing give low skilled workers more power in negotiating wages and benefits. Why wouldn't workers unionize? You've pointed out exactly why employers don't want workers to unionize and why workers should want to unionize.
    If they are so replaceable why should a CEO listen to even a union?
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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Donahue View Post
    I don't even know what that means. They have every right to demand anything they want but since they're so low skilled and easily replaced there is just no real reason an employer should cave to every demand. I don't really see what the issue is.
    That's exactly what Hostess did.

    I suppose if I owned a large corporation and if unions were attempting to screw me - I wouldn't sell the operation, however I would shut it down for a few months and replace all of the labor with temporary workers via temp agencies after the CBA expired... Why bother with unions when labor can be contracted elsewhere?

    I wouldn't allow a bunch of unskilled layman to dictate my business via threats of strike (hence a cease in operation).

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Which is exactly my point. One worker is replacable. All your workers organized into a union make up the majority of value added in the production process. Organizing give low skilled workers more power in negotiating wages and benefits. Why wouldn't workers unionize? You've pointed out exactly why employers don't want workers to unionize and why workers should want to unionize.
    Unionizing workers does not add value; it adds cost.

    The market does an excellent job of determining value. I understand laborers want to be paid more but, in the interests of self-preservation, they need to understand that they're just not worth more. Democrats and union leaders have played them like a fiddle but the reality is most of these companies operate on margins so thin that they couldn't possibly stay in business if labor was paid too much more.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    Im sure you didnt see it..but I posted two last week about pharmacuetical companies killing people by hiding the risks to life that they knew existed from the public and the doctors..no one goes to jail just fines..
    and I would agree that's a problem. You play with others' lives like that, you rate the consequences. But the notion that "a couple of pharmaceutical companies" can somehow be extrapolated to all business owners or all large businesses makes no more sense than the notion that a couple of Police Officers who rape young women can be extrapolated to all or most police officers are thug pigs who can't wait to take advantage of the power society gives them to victimize the innocent.

    Thats what infuriates me..big banks..big pharma big anything that get caught stealing billions or hundreds of millions from the public..no one goes to jail and they get a 100 million dollar fine for stealing a half a billion...its all bs cp..there are many components to the reasons I feel the way I do...the difference is..you only look for the good in corporations and there is good to find...I look for the bad and theres plenty of that too.
    I find the bad in people - I don't expect anthropomorphic qualities out of a corporation. The only difference between an executive who steals $100 million from his company and the guy that stole the money out of my car is that one had better access.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Which is exactly my point. One worker is replacable. All your workers organized into a union make up the majority of value added in the production process. Organizing give low skilled workers more power in negotiating wages and benefits. Why wouldn't workers unionize? You've pointed out exactly why employers don't want workers to unionize and why workers should want to unionize.
    I think you're missing the part about "supply and demand."

    There will always be someone there to take an unskilled job for less than what your unions demand. You see, what unions are trying to do is create a monopoly on unskilled labor...

    BTW, it's not OK to be an unskilled worker. The reason why people go to learn a skill is to get compensated more - that's the driving force - that's the reason why people go to college or learn a trade - so they get skills that are in demand that pay more than stuffing boxes or stocking a store shelf. Remedial jobs shouldn't be careers, they should be jobs for kids in high school or college or for the elderly who want something productive to do with their time.

    Walmart pay should inspire people to learn something that is in demand - that pay should tell the individual that they need to do something with their lives -- not -- "I'm perfectly content with this stupid job but I want more money doing it."

    Yeah, I will admit Walmart has some sketchy business practices, however that should be an eye-opener to do something else.

    Remember no one is being forced to work for Walmart - there are plenty of options out there.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Not necessarily, because increased productivity doesn't always mean the worker is doing more work.
    In manufacturing, worker productivity has continued to increase through machine assist, ergonomics and other contributing factors.

    If a company buys a machine, to increase worker productivity, why does the worker deserve more wages?
    Companies also buy machines to replace workers. They are starting to do more of that here in the central valley. Imigrant labour starting to become too expensive.
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