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Thread: Walmart workers demand better wages

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    See, some gains do go to people, in the way of more jobs, increased profit sharing, less physical work per hour, greater product benefits, increased dividends, increased capital gains, etc, etc.

    You're really only focusing on one aspect, wages.

    Rising tides does lift all boats, otherwise the life expectancy and general quality of life around the world, would of stayed the same or gone down.
    Sure, but all of those things aren't increased by market forces or taken on by there employers. Better working conditions were bargained by unions and eventually through union political power codified into law. Life Expectancy improved through better working conditions and most importantly access to medical care.

    I agree with you...rises in productivity have the POTENTIAL to benefit all. The modern state would not be possible without technological and productivity advancements. My main argument is that it's unions/government/minimum standards that resulted in the sharing of those gains.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Donahue View Post
    90% of the population?

    We're talking about the very bottom rung of the ladder and I just don't know what you expect. The income gap might be at an all time high but so is the skill gap. I get that you hate the "rich" but a surgeon has needed skills that takes years to acquire whereas Walmart replaces lost employees with the next high school drop out who fills out an application.
    You are right. 90% is too high of a number but it's still a very large % of individuals that work in low skill low pay jobs.

    Sure there is a skill gap. I'm not advocating a low skilled laborer make as much as a surgeon. I'm advocating they have more power when negotiating wages and benefits with their employers.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Sure, but all of those things aren't increased by market forces or taken on by there employers. Better working conditions were bargained by unions and eventually through union political power codified into law. Life Expectancy improved through better working conditions and most importantly access to medical care.
    I greatly disagree.
    India, China, et all, didn't really start to escape poverty, until they dropped protectionism and embraced modern market production.


    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    I agree with you...rises in productivity have the POTENTIAL to benefit all. The modern state would not be possible without technological and productivity advancements. My main argument is that it's unions/government/minimum standards that resulted in the sharing of those gains.
    Individual expectations and greater earnings, brought those things.
    People started making more money, union or not, government or not.

    Wages, safety standards, etc don't increase, just because of those groups.
    They increase because employers will pay more and offer better conditions, for better workers, in a lot of industries.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I greatly disagree.
    India, China, et all, didn't really start to escape poverty, until they dropped protectionism and embraced modern market production.
    .
    I would disagree...they weren't able to compete until there was a global move to drop protectionism and embrace a more neo-liberal view of global competition. China is still a totalitarian country where corruption and protectionism exists. If you want to talk about red tape or bureacracy China is the poster boy. India as well.

    Individual expectations and greater earnings, brought those things.
    People started making more money, union or not, government or not.

    Wages, safety standards, etc don't increase, just because of those groups.
    They increase because employers will pay more and offer better conditions, for better workers, in a lot of industries.
    I think you're underestimating the impact of unions. Unions had to fight bloody battles for just the right to unionize. Factory owners would increase wages (like Ford) in order to prevent their employees from unionizing. There was a major battle fought as to what employment is and what employees are owed.

    Just look at baseball. It was a lucrative business and owners stacked the cards against the players. They weren't allowed to offer their labor at other baseball teams. Free agency didn't exist. Wages were a much smaller part of revenue. Same with football. Both of those industries had unique employees with very high talents. In fact the best at what they do in the world. At the same time it wasn't until strikes and the creation of a strong union until they actual started receiving pay nearly equal to what their labor was worth.

    I don't think it's a coincidence that wages started to stagnant at the same time that anti-union policies and politics became popular.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    I would disagree...they weren't able to compete until there was a global move to drop protectionism and embrace a more neo-liberal view of global competition. China is still a totalitarian country where corruption and protectionism exists. If you want to talk about red tape or bureacracy China is the poster boy. India as well.
    True red tape and protectionism exists in these places, but not to the extent that it did exist.
    A good example, if you happen to watch it, was Friedman's "Free to Choose" series, where he highlights how India kept archaic industry practices in textiles.
    All the while, the rest of the world had mechanized.



    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    I think you're underestimating the impact of unions. Unions had to fight bloody battles for just the right to unionize. Factory owners would increase wages (like Ford) in order to prevent their employees from unionizing. There was a major battle fought as to what employment is and what employees are owed.

    Just look at baseball. It was a lucrative business and owners stacked the cards against the players. They weren't allowed to offer their labor at other baseball teams. Free agency didn't exist. Wages were a much smaller part of revenue. Same with football. Both of those industries had unique employees with very high talents. In fact the best at what they do in the world. At the same time it wasn't until strikes and the creation of a strong union until they actual started receiving pay nearly equal to what their labor was worth.

    I don't think it's a coincidence that wages started to stagnant at the same time that anti-union policies and politics became popular.
    Unions had an impact, but I don't believe that all employers were so dastardly that they would treat their employees like crap.
    As popular as that narrative is in the history books, it's much to one sided to be believed.

    My company, as an example, started with quasi democratic socialist undertones in employee treatment, without the existence of a union.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    True red tape and protectionism exists in these places, but not to the extent that it did exist.
    A good example, if you happen to watch it, was Friedman's "Free to Choose" series, where he highlights how India kept archaic industry practices in textiles.
    All the while, the rest of the world had mechanized.
    I'll check it out.

    Unions had an impact, but I don't believe that all employers were so dastardly that they would treat their employees like crap.
    As popular as that narrative is in the history books, it's much to one sided to be believed.

    My company, as an example, started with quasi democratic socialist undertones in employee treatment, without the existence of a union.
    I don't think employers are dastardly at all. I think they have pressure to reduce costs and very little pay their workers a livable wage. I also think that a small company where direct relationships are built with employees is drastically different than large organizations where labor is just a cost and a number. I think you can take almost anyone, stick them in a system where their incentive is to keep wages low with very little if any incentive to increase the cost of labor and the result is long term stagnant wages.

    I think in an arms length environment people don't look after the well being of others. It has positivies and negatives. I think the main negative is hard numbers are king at the expense of morality. Some of the positives are...well that hard numbers are king.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    That is the alternative prefered by me as well. But the demorats have found an even easier way to achieve that "success" by using income redistributon, in the name of "fairness", take from the few rich and give to the many poor - effectively buying their votes with other people's money. Yes they can!
    Yep, that's what they do.

    I'm from Chicago, and it is absolutely disgusting... Democrats here buy votes in plain view and think it's funny - as if its politics as usual....

    Every democrat in Illinois may as well hold a sign that reads; "vote for me because I will try to get you the most free entitlements as possible."

    The unions back the progressives and the progressives back the unions and it's all about $$$$$$$$. The unions donate campaign funds and the progressives pay them back via contracts and backing union labor. Meanwhile the non-union private sector gets screwed.

    So naturally here in Chicago we end up with a bunch of dishonest thieves for politicians who routinely use taxpayer money to fund their own financial exploits and hardly anyone cares about their unethical behavior because these progressives give them "free entitlements" for their vote.

    The typical progressive doesn't care about the economic health of this nation just as long as they're getting something for free from government... That's all progressives care about - what they can get for free! This is why Chicago is one of the worst cities in every category - from the murder rate to unemployment to education... No one cares just as long as the government financially supports them as much as possible. The typical progressive doesn't care if 12th graders are reading at a 4th grade level just as long as these kids get free breakfast and free lunches on the taxpayer dole, or teachers (unions) making 80-120k a year reading 17-year-old idiots Dr. Seuss books.

    Progressives believe it's the governments responsibility to financially support them, and it's the governments responsibility to make sure via unions they get paid 40 dollars an hour scrubbing toilets....

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    I'll check it out.
    I know you're not as "pro market" as I am, but it is a good series.
    The best part I think is the afterward, where he openly debates people of different political beliefs, over the subjects in the video.


    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    I don't think employers are dastardly at all. I think they have pressure to reduce costs and very little pay their workers a livable wage. I also think that a small company where direct relationships are built with employees is drastically different than large organizations where labor is just a cost and a number. I think you can take almost anyone, stick them in a system where their incentive is to keep wages low with very little if any incentive to increase the cost of labor and the result is long term stagnant wages.

    I think in an arms length environment people don't look after the well being of others. It has positivies and negatives. I think the main negative is hard numbers are king at the expense of morality. Some of the positives are...well that hard numbers are king.
    I think the wage declines we've seen have been made up in increases in other benefits.
    I would rather measure total compensation, instead of just wages.
    It presents a much more real number.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post

    I think the wage declines we've seen have been made up in increases in other benefits.
    I would rather measure total compensation, instead of just wages.
    It presents a much more real number.
    That's definately fair. Compensation is a better measure than total wages. I'll have to check out some compensation information for workers for the past couple of decades since those numbers are not discussed as much.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen
    Sure there is a skill gap. I'm not advocating a low skilled laborer make as much as a surgeon. I'm advocating they have more power when negotiating wages and benefits with their employers.
    You negotiate with power when you have it to give. If your skill set is so mundane that it's replaceable with the nod of the head, you have no power. No power, no negotiation.

    The better solution is to go out and get yourself a chip to ante up at the boardroom table instead of forcing government to grant someone unearned power.

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