Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.
Alexis de Tocqueville
2. I'm saying the Unions are a different animal BECAUSE of the union power and the institutional framework, and it seams like you agree, also the Codetermination laws were also put in to limit the power of capitalists.
3. It is institutional, Germany has a policies preventing companies from exploiting foreign labor and preventing outsourcing, also the shorter supply chains come form the social-market model .
5. It IS institutions, no **** they don't do thinkgs for altruistic reasons, they do it because its the best way to run things WITHIN THE INSTITUTIONAL FRAMEWORK ... Its not just that Americans are dumber than Germanys, there are actual differences in economic policy that create those things.
What you're arguing is like arguing that people simply enjoy smoking less today than they did before, totally ignoring the changes in policies and information that caused those things. Most of what you're saying is true, but its doesn't happen in a bubble for no reason, buisiness practices are shaped by incentive systems which are created by the institutional framework the economy runs in.
But are you claiming that Co-Determination doesn't contribute largely to the strength of German industry?
2. That's a strawman, I'm not arguing for Leninism ... Capitalism is enforced by a gun, thats how Capitalist property laws are made, and if you look at the history of Capitalism, it was accomplished through the barrel of a gun.
2. No. The laws were put into place to keep unions and management from having violent outbreaks against each other and mitigate the possibilities of wildcat strikes, scab workers and a number of other things. Saying it was just about capitalism is your liberal talking points again.
3. No, they dont. The companies themselves prevent that to keep economic advantage from outsourcing the things they do best. They want to maintain the advantage of knowing advanced manufacturing process. This is a result of the co-determination board, workers see long term stability from learning new processes and keeping them inside Germany and are miles ahead of accomodating to new procedures and manufacturing processes. Outsourcing is not illegal in Germany. If you want to refute this, cite a source that concretely spells it out.
5. If you are seriously going to put forward that shorter supply chains are based in German institutions, we dont have much to talk about. Its a business decision its not institutional, quality control is of greater importance in Germany as is stability. Both lend themselves to smaller supply chains and quality circles.
Im arguing that the co-determination board is there to blunt the adversarial nature of the union versus management dynamic and it was done to make the country stable and peaceful after seeing the problems cause by those issues in the US in the 20s and 30s. I live in mine war country, it was bloody. Co-determination boards are not JUST there to act as a brake on management, its also there to soften hardline stances from union leadership.
Last edited by OpportunityCost; 12-03-12 at 08:30 AM.
"With me everything turns into mathematics."
"It is not enough to have a good mind. The main thing is to use it well."
"It is truth very certain that, when it is not in one's power to determine what is true, we ought to follow what is more probable." -- Rene Descartes
2. It was also about taking control away from the capitalists, who were a big part of the rise of hitler, also it avoided violent outbreaks BY GIVING UNIONS MORE POWER, which I am in favor of.
3. Exactly, also outsourcing is not illigal, but Germany has many incentive structures that disencourage it. But I'm happy you accept that co-determination is a big part of what makes teh german buisiness culture what it is.
5. Buisiness decisions are not made in a vaccume ... thats my point. What you are arguing is like arguing that the US military is good not because of money but because of technology ... The 2 are not seperate.
2. That is socialist propaganda bull****. Dont godwin the thread with moronic statements you cant begin to support.
3. Backpedal much? Dont try to say something is illegal then worm your way out of it by agreeing with me after you get burnt.
5. You are ignoring that the US placed the stability model into the German legal structure because we had a lot of input into legal framework after WW2. What happened, and its a good thing, is German cultural influences on quality and stability and hard work, were adapted into the co-determination efforts to make a stronger whole. Their culture and their institutions helped shape each other. You argue that the co-determination board decides everything is too simple in nature. The co-determination process squeezes concessions from both sides and changes the labor/management dynamic. Management still controls the reins but with input from labor. Your misconcepts about how much power the co-determination process gives to labor are littered throughout this thread. You have backtracked repeatedly because you dont know jack about business process and fall back on your social institution crapola that you cant begin to prove.