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Thread: Walmart workers demand better wages

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    There's always some degree of wiggle-room, but unskilled labor isn't supposed to be a career.
    Kind of like me then I guess. Killing people and breaking things wasn't supposed to be my career, but that is what it ended up being. If I don't like where I ended up, I can only blame myself, not others. It is a shame that more people don't realize that where they end up and what they have is caused by their own choices in life.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Kind of like me then I guess. Killing people and breaking things wasn't supposed to be my career, but that is what it ended up being. If I don't like where I ended up, I can only blame myself, not others. It is a shame that more people don't realize that where they end up and what they have is caused by their own choices in life.
    Much respect to you for looking at what more you could have done for yourself before looking at others doing something for you.
    "With me everything turns into mathematics."
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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Theres aways a give and take. No one gets everything they want. it is a negotiation, even if they strike. Rarely have strikes end with getting everything, if ever. They merely reach a point they both can live with.
    Did the workers in Hostess want to be let go? I some how doubt it.
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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Except thats not how it would work, because we see in cooepratives people that have more responsiblity generally get paid more ... just not rediculously more, I mean we have tons of examples of this.
    Of course people that have more responsibility get paid more. Thats how it should be. But that has nothing to do with cooperatives. The individual has more responsibility so they get paid more. The individual that has less gets payed less. Thats the way it should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    No it isn't ... they pay themselves, what gives them that right is not mental labor, its control of capital.
    And how do they first get control of that capitol? Through thier mental acuity. It certainly isn't by sitting on thier ass.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Of coarse it is the right and moral way to go about it ... It is right and moral to take responsiblity for yourself and your well being, and not accept being a wage slave.
    No, the right and moral way is to go and sit at a table and discuss merits. Not go outside and make a scene chanting some slogan that is worthless costing the company money. That just creates bad feelings and hardship for people that have nothing to do with your dispute.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    I'm saying the workers should have a say.
    They do have a say in thier wage. All they have to do is accept or not accept the wage offered at the date of hire. If they get hired and want more later on down the line then they should ASK, like adults. Not through temper tantrums like spoiled children.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Also having a part in the decision making would make them part of the management .... any argument you make against that is the same that monarchists would make against democracy.
    Gotta love these silly statements. A company cannot work as a democracy. Again, look at our Senate and Congress to see what a democracy is like in action.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    And what? 50 years ago you didn't have the saem wealth disaprity you have now ... I'm not saying everyone has to be equal, I'm saying everyone should have the same say in the decisions that effect their lives.
    So? 50 years ago we also had more morals, and less greed. We have changed alot in 50 years.

    And that is not what you are saying at all. You are saying that you want the grunts to have just as much say as those that built the company. Even the ones that just started working.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Nonsense, Capitalism HAS'NT always been around, infact socialist forms of organization existed before capitalism.
    Wrong. The very first form of "government" if you can call it that was strength makes right. If you're stronger than the other guy then you can take what he has. Capitalism started the moment when Strength makes Right stopped being the main thing and people started trading one item for another. Even Germany, which you tout as being socialistic (which its not) (or at least the picture perfect way of unions) is based on capitalism.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    As far as socialism never working ... thats nonsense, the system that can be taking advantage of more is Capitalism, infact it happens all the time, which is why now its basically run by a couple bankers.
    Name me one socialist country that has worked.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    ... Its not a capitalistic of socialistic idea, its just a fact on how capitalism works, I'm not for or against it.
    Contradictory. If its a socialistic idea (which its not) how can it also be based on capitalism which is the anti-thesis of socialism? Do you even know what socialism actually is?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Workers will never get their labors worth, because they are in the disadvantage of not holding capital.
    Sure they will. And do. 7% of our working force is in a union in the US. 53% of our workforce is either middle class or rich....going by US standards of wealth. I would have to say that those that are middle class and rich easily get thier labor's worth. The lower 47% is debateable as to thier worth. And you cannot go by what the individual thinks that they are worth because they will always claim that they are worth far more than they really are.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    The point is the workers will get fired, pensinos cut and so on before the CEO's compensation gets cut.
    So? Considering the CEO has more invested into the company than the common worker it only makes since that they are not the first to get cut. Why should they be? Just because YOU don't see them doing anything does not mean that they don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    BTW, I Have a question, over the last 20 years executive compensation has risen 300% ... have CEOs gotten 300% better?
    Beats me. I'm not a CEO. I'm one of those lower 47% people. But it is quite possible with the advancements in technology making things easier to keep track of things that a CEO needs to keep track of.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Semantics ... Ownership is power.
    So? Power does not equal bad. Power is neutral. It is how the power is used that makes good or bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Except IT DOES WORK .... you have many many examples of extremely successful cooperative firms ... infact the richest region in Europe is run mainly by cooperatives ... You're just talking out of ignorance.
    Oh yes, the whole unionized Germany bit. Do you even know the differences between the US and Germany? I tried to point towards it once before but you ignored it. I'll ask again, How much greed is there in Germany compared to the US? (and yes, I already know the answer)

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    You're assuming that capitalist property is a natural right ... it isn't ... its a social construct.
    If you want to get semantical any right is a social construct. But guess what. It doesn't matter what you think or not because in the US capitalist property (property period) IS a right. It is even in the Constitution. 5th and 14th Amendment.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    My living room is not a social construct because it does'nt affect other peoples lives.
    And items on shelves don't affect other peoples lives either. But we're not talking about inanimate objects. We're talking about you, your property.

    BTW, if we want to expand on your idea that a CEO did not build the company from the ground up because of society then the same would apply to your living room. Because without society your living room would not have been able to have been built. Using your same arguement those that built your house has a right to say how that house is treated, lived in, what is in it, how much they should get for you living in it etc etc.
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  5. #1085
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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Ok after reading about Hostess ... you're full of **** ... Hostess went through 7 CEOs in 10 years, they had missmanaged for years, loosing income, the workers ALREADY took a hit while executives were taking pay increass ... the company would have gone under with or without the strike ... You cannot seriously blame Hostess on teh unions ... when you get ever increasing pay increases for executives while running the company into the ground .... you can't blame the union for wanting to put a stop to that.
    You apparently only read what you wanted to read and ignored the part (if you even looked for it) that unions had in Hostess's downfall. You should also probably note that I never ONCE said that the CEO's of Hostess never messed up. But they were not he only reasons for Hostess going downhill. And it wasn't the union wanting to put a stop to Hostess's mismanagement. The wanted to be paid more. Which is not very smart to demand of a company that is on the brink of bankruptcy...wouldn't you say? But no. They had to demand more knowing that Hostess was struggling. Knowing that they couldn't take a strike. Was even warned that if the workers didn't get back to work then Hostess WOULD fold and have to liquidate. Yet the workers did not care that Hostess was struggling. They didn't care that a continued strike would bankrupt them. All they cared about was getting more money. Not caring that they were asking for more than Hostess could give.

    But you don't care about that either do you? You only care that Hostess CEO's were making more than the workers and by your definition of morality that is just wrong. Because you see everyone as equal. Regardless of the fact that people are not equal in the things that matter to a buisness.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    As far as the crappy worker ... the other workeres would'nt wnat a crappy worker in either ... so chances are in a democratic workplace he'd be out. However we have examples of strong union countries, in scandanavia and germany ... are those countries unproductive???? Nope ... emprical evidence always works best.
    You should really take a look at what the unions do in Germany and Germany itself before comparing it to the US. We have two totally different cultures.

    As for the crappy worker. 1: Democracy does not work when running a company. 2: A crappy worker can still be well liked. That alone would keep him in his position if it was up to a democracy. Just look at Obama. He's a crappy President yet he is well liked by enough people to keep him in office. And don't even try to claim that I think Romeny or any of the other politicians that ran for POTUS was good. I thought that they were ALL crap.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Working hard helps, but without collective power, the boss will ALWAYS put losses on the workers and take gains for himself ... being a good slave won't change that, the boss will ALWAYS pay himself the most he can and pay the workers the least he can.
    He/should will still do that even with a union. As he/she should. In a company the owner is always the most important. Everyone else is replaceable with other workers compared to the owner.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    No they arn't other than IPOs the company doesn't see any of the money when a stock is bought. Most people buy stocks to get capital gains ... not for long term investment, shareholders actually have very little long term interest in a company, which is one major problem with capitalism.
    Yes shareholders of today have very little interest in long term. But that has nothing to do with the stock itself and has everything to do with greed and short term thinking. If a shareholder wanted they could take over the company long term. Just because it doesn't happen doesn't mean that it can't happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    So then its irrelevant.
    Thinking that lieing is irrelevent is one huge problem with you youngsters these days.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    What else did you say that you want me to respond to?
    All of it that you did not already respond to.
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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    1. Where is the evidence that German manufacturs are "more agile" ....?

    2. That doesn't explain much since German auto manufacturs were extremely unionized ... also that doesn't change the fact that the auto industry was doing fine when unions were strongest.

    3. Where is the evidence that supply chains are smaller? Also purchasing locally is partially German socail policy, i.e. public policy restricting companies ... not Capitalism. As far as strikes, where is the evidence that post ww2, the US had more strikes? Also remember Unions are STRONGER in Germany.

    4. We were not JUST talking about the auto-industry, but that isn't culture at all, that's just management.

    5. Ok ... doesn't really change my point though ... Also we were not JUST talking about the auto-industry
    1. They do smaller manufacturing runs and their manufacturing industry was smaller in scope post WW2. It was much cheaper for them to retool with a smaller machine base.

    2. Unions were strongest in the US in early 60s into the late 70s---at which point decline in auto manufacturing began. You still arent getting the point about German unions being vastly different from US unions. US unions are adversarial in nature, German unions work with management and have open information policies. Its not just unions in the US, management is just as guilty.

    3. Go look it up. Im not going to explain something to you thats common knowledge on supply chain management. GM focuses on redundancies in their supply chain, Toyota focuses on building relationships with sub contracting manufacturers. Japanese companies follow that model and Germans do the same thing. It could have arisen from lack of having a lot of manufacturers competing in niche markets, I dont know. I just know that it is.

    4. No, son, thats marketing.

    5. Yeah we werent. Where are most US electronics made again? Asia? We are still engaging in a push economy in several sectors. The second consideration is combatting the illegal trade activities China is engaging in from piracy, to copyright theft, to product dumping. US innovation is great, our ability to capitlize on it long term? Not so much.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    I want labor to be in a better bargaining position than they are currently. That's it. Organized workers can bargain as a whole and get a higher portion of the profits...which they deserve. Bargaining still occurs. Wages are still set by how profitable a company is, workers just have more power when wages are decided.
    Wages are not set by how profitable a company is.

    They're set by market based conditions.

    A guy cutting deli meat in King Kullen's earns roughly the same as a guy cutting deli meat in Pathmark regardless of which stores is doing better.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Perhaps you can list your credentials to tell us all what qualifies you to judge who may or may not speak about a Wal Mart job let alone attack me for daring to comment about them?
    I dont need any credentials to understand that comparing a job to a root canal is a stupid argument. Look, I complained about your plainly over the top comment. Dont want that to happen? Stop saying stupid stuff.

    Stop accusing everyone attacking you. I attacked your argument. Quit whining.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Did the workers in Hostess want to be let go? I some how doubt it.
    Perhaps not. But when they gave concessions and the CEO got a big bonus, it likely set this stand off in motion.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Perhaps not. But when they gave concessions and the CEO got a big bonus, it likely set this stand off in motion.
    People would be better off worrying about themselves, rather than displaying their envy of someone else's station in life. Maybe then they would move up instead of trying to bring others down.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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