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Thread: Walmart workers demand better wages

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Governmetn doesn't create ****? Really Well me living in Norway and benefiting from companies like Statoil and DnBNor I beg to differ.

    Also where are you getting these statistics about government?

    Also efficiency has to be measured differently in public firms than private ... because the public must take care of negative externalities ... So for example medicare has to take those with pre-existing conditions AND without ... Statoil has to deal with enviromental issues that the public worries about and so on.
    US budget statistics. 2/3 of our budget is social spending.

    How did government get the property? Did they take it from someone else or did they actually pay for it?

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Its really hard explaining business history to someone that doesnt know a dang thing about it. Go look at the history of WW2 post Germany and Japan marketing and industry techniques that revolutionized changes.

    First point: US manufacturing became too big and monolithic in nature. Product changes have been happening faster and faster--the agile companies that are able to retool easier become first movers. Changing product lines is a costly job.

    Second Point: The auto industry in particular allowed unions to embed themselves into procedure that was designed to create more union jobs, it hindered productivity and quality control in a variety of areas throughout the market.

    Third Point: Supply chains in Germany and Japan are smaller, allowing tighter quality control---US industries have to double and triple up on supply chains due to work stoppages for various reasons--including strikes.

    Fourth Point: The US auto industry had a lot of trouble adapting to smaller vehicle manufacture. They simply didnt know how to make smaller, lighter cars---when the Japanese had been practicing it for years before American industry even got started. The US has made up ground more or less steadily but they were behind since approximately the the late 70s.

    Fifth Point: Japanese marketing people were actually taking feedback on their vehicles and improving them. American vehicles were being done via push rather than pull marketing we were still in a productivity based market that wasnt making products then trying to find markets instead of the other way around.

    Rebutt some of that and Ill get back to you.
    1. Where is the evidence that German manufacturs are "more agile" ....?

    2. That doesn't explain much since German auto manufacturs were extremely unionized ... also that doesn't change the fact that the auto industry was doing fine when unions were strongest.

    3. Where is the evidence that supply chains are smaller? Also purchasing locally is partially German socail policy, i.e. public policy restricting companies ... not Capitalism. As far as strikes, where is the evidence that post ww2, the US had more strikes? Also remember Unions are STRONGER in Germany.

    4. We were not JUST talking about the auto-industry, but that isn't culture at all, that's just management.

    5. Ok ... doesn't really change my point though ... Also we were not JUST talking about the auto-industry

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    US budget statistics. 2/3 of our budget is social spending.

    How did government get the property? Did they take it from someone else or did they actually pay for it?
    Link to those statistics? Also social security is not social spending it doesn't take from the budget ...

    The goverrnment CREATED IT, actyually no, God created it, either way, in the case of Statoil and DNBNor ... also where do capitalist property institutinos come from??? The government.

    If you own a giant estate the only reason I can't go on and pick apples, is becuase of the state, there is nothing in nature that says you own that giant estate and all the apples that grow on it ... its a state institution.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    You're speaking my mind but you word your post as though we disagree or something

    I'm telling the protesters to STFU and go to their employer and negotiate....with their employer....not through a union rep.
    Not much of a negotiating stance in the case of walmart, unless you just happen to be in a really strange and rare place, the negotiations are simple.

    Walmart -- this is what we pay for this job

    Potential employee -- your pay is too low and there are no benefits

    Walmart -- then seek a job elsewhere and let one of the 18+ other people looking for a job in. Thanks for stopping by.

    Pretty easy in this case because it is unskilled labor and the demand for jobs is much, much higher than the number of jobs available. Actually, I think is pretty nice of Walmart to offer above minimum wage, especially in a market where they probably wouldn't have to.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Chances are, if you can't go somewhere else for a better paying job then you're not worth more.
    "With me everything turns into mathematics."
    "It is not enough to have a good mind. The main thing is to use it well."
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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Not much of a negotiating stance in the case of walmart, unless you just happen to be in a really strange and rare place, the negotiations are simple.

    Walmart -- this is what we pay for this job

    Potential employee -- your pay is too low and there are no benefits

    Walmart -- then seek a job elsewhere and let one of the 18+ other people looking for a job in. Thanks for stopping by.

    Pretty easy in this case because it is unskilled labor and the demand for jobs is much, much higher than the number of jobs available. Actually, I think is pretty nice of Walmart to offer above minimum wage, especially in a market where they probably wouldn't have to.
    There's always some degree of wiggle-room, but unskilled labor isn't supposed to be a career.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathematician View Post
    Chances are, if you can't go somewhere else for a better paying job then you're not worth more.
    With national unemployment being high, why should they pay me more when they can hire someone else to do it for less? Maybe I should just be thankful I have a job and count my blessings. If I want a raise then I need to show a reason for why I deserve it, but even then there's a cap to how much that job is worth.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    No apparently you arent calling people thugs, you are calling them fascists instead--thats much better.
    No, I'm doing that either. Anyone thinking I am has a comprehension issue.


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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Thta isn't wthat I said .... I never said I support government sponsered theft, government CREATES property ... I support property being treated as it is, a socail institution, not a natural right.

    Also I am here in reality ... Capitalism is failing ...

    We are talking about Walmart and unions ... and I think the person who thinks that walmart workers would be better off without any collective action needs to wake up to reality ... when they are surrounded by evidence and logic showing the opposite.
    Psst, check your Lean. Socialist. Many of us know that Marx's socialist theories and methods called for Government theft as a means of bring about change from capitalism. Of course, as a socialist, you may not view the government seizing the assets and properties of those who fight against socialism as theft. So either you are not a real socialist (an adherent of Marx) and are really a sudo-socialist, or you are ignorant of what Marx wrote or you support government theft of private properties/monies.

    No, capitalism is not failing. The sudo-socialistic economic policy of regulated capitalism is failing. True, unfettered capitalism does not exist in the US and hasn't for a very longtime now, if it ever existed. Our current economic failings can all be tracked back to the introduction of greater and greater governmental controls and the introduction of "social" policy in the government.

    No one, at least that I have read, ever said that walmart workers, as individuals would not be better off, at least for a time. You are only looking at the effects upon a portion of the 1.4 million walmart employees. You are not taking into account what it would do the the far greater number of walmart shoppers. You seem to think that it would only effect walmart workers and walmart management. It affects far more people than that. The savings to customers has been what has driven walmart to the place it now is. To meet the pay levels that some workers demand and the whole "living wage" idea, it would have to greatly increase it's pricing. The people who can only afford walmart pricing will no longer be able to afford much of anything. People who can afford walmart prices on non essential products may no longer be able to afford them, decreasing consumer sales in an already depressed and fragile economy. This would not just affect walmart either, it will affect everyone in the chain that gets the products manufactured and delivered to the individual stores. Walmart is big enough that it may have a significant effect upon the whole economy.

    As a socialist, you approach the matter from the view point that all people have a minimum value and that each persons value is equal. This lack of a realistic concept of value is at the core of the failures and the falsehood of the promised paradise preached by socialist. However, to a company, any company, an individuals value to that company is directly related to what that individual contributes to the company. A person value to society is only what that individual gives to society and since we do not have nor can we ever have equal input to a society, every person in the society cannot have equal value to the society. There are many in our society that only take from it and never give back, or give back only a very small amount compared to what they take. Pure logic would dictate ridding society of those who have a negative value, however, because they are a person, we do not follow pure logic but instead try to act humanly towards them.

    Even those who do not go as far as a socialist but still feel that a worker should have a minimum value, though not equal are following down the path towards socialism, thus they are socialistic, even if they don't admit it. If they were to achieve their goal of a "living wage" with benefits for all, they would not stop there but would immediately start working to eliminating what they see as inequities in the system. Unions, especially collective bargaining, are following down this path. As we have seen, this has caused total failure in a case like Hostess and massive outsourcing in other businesses. It has also caused some to start calling for greater and greater government actions to stop these failures in the economy, however, the government cannot stop the effects of this causal factor without becoming socialist. You may desire this affect, but some of us can use logic and reason and see that this failure of value in socialism will only lead to failure of a socialist systems. Socialism depends on everyone acting idealistically and we all know that greed influences far more people than any idealistic model.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustachio View Post
    I can't read the minds of these Wal-Mart workers but you and others have repeatedly attributed their protests to selfishness or at the very least you're saying they just want more money they haven't earned. While I can't deny that thought may be exactly what's going through their head, a lot of protestors and a lot of unions are working to ensure that everybody gets a fair deal. To ensure that if you work hard enough, you will be able to get by so long as you are dedicated, resilient, and able. Yes, Wal-Mart hired these employees for whatever wage and yes, they agreed to it, but that doesn't mean it's fair.

    I used to know a guy who came to the US from India and got a job at this Indian restaurant where they paid everybody less than minimum wage and had a dozen or so of their employees live in an apartment together. They agreed to it, so it's fair, right? They couldn't change it, though, because they were getting paid under the table (as fair as I knew) so they had no say. This is the result of employees losing their voice. They will be exploited and used to further increase the billions of dollars Wal-Mart is pulling in, so long as they cannot be heard. If I were in the Indian chap's position, I would have demanded fairness, but I wouldn't do it out of selfishness or the conquest for wealth and power. I'd do it to help every one of those poor guys stuffed into a two bedroom apartment.

    These days, people are struggling just to tread water and every day they go to work and every day they get paid the same amount as the slacker kid who works the register once a week. They agreed to it, but that doesn't mean it's fair. I think you were talking about Wal-Mart's benefits being pretty standard and comparable to those offered by smaller businesses. The only reason for that is the employees and American citizens who demanded better treatment. Rosa Parks didn't ask everybody if they were cool with her sitting at the front of the bus. Kennedy didn't say "we will go to the moon within ten years if you guys feel like doing it."

    Every thought of yours begins with the same premise, which is that Wal-Mart employees are already receiving a fair amount of money. But why is $8 an hour fair? What is that based on? And if you had a job for $8 an hour and weren't making ends meet, why wouldn't you demand to get what you think is fair. The whole "if you don't want the job, go find another one" is only a small step removed from "if you don't like [the current president] you can move to Canada."
    Just stop, you are using the word selfish. I am saying that employees have a lot of nerve demanding anything, you earn and renegotiate wages, or you accept your conditions. I'm sick of people overestimating their value and trying to force employers to pay them more than what they are worth.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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