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Thread: Walmart workers demand better wages

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    They take part in the running of the companies ... having a vote on the board makes a difference ... BOTH boards, you also have different systems in different countries that have co-determination.
    We were speaking of Germany. You dont get to put the goalposts on wheels. This isnt Daily KOS where other liberals will cover your tracks for you when you mis-state facts. The highest example of German union co-ownership is 40%. The norm is 20%. Im speaking of the actual voting board, not the advisory board. The German model of co-determination is fairly unique, especially with a two tier system. The Swedes have a single tier Co-determination system and the Euro legislative body is trying to pass legislation to that effect. The UK attempted it but were shot down because there is no two tier system, it was deemed unfeasible.

    You need to quit doubling down on wrong. You do not know as much about this system as you claim to. Just let it go now and save some face and quit trying to defend a position where you were wrong and every point you expound with is also wrong.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    I was'nt talking about the details of the co-determination system, I'm sayin that it gives workers a REAL voice in management and it does have real economic impacts ... about the details of it, its not that relevant ... unless you're arguing its inconsequencial.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Not only the infastructure, also the whole institutino of property, the whole system of private capitalist ownership and so on, the whole capital market system, the whole system of regulation making sure that people are not cheated.

    Saying its always been buisiness paying the majority of the bills ... no **** ... thats like saying its the king that pays most of teh bills, because buisiness controls all the capital and resources.

    Government being corrupt is a problem of buisinesses having too much power ... and in countries where you have a stronger public sector and less powerful corporations you don't have that kind of corruption, but corporatism is the natural outcome of capitalism (as Marx predicts).

    Capitalism has been the best system so far ... but capitalism is riddled with self contradictions that lead to its collapse, so we have to find a better solution.
    So you support government sponsored theft because you dont believe in property rights....good to know.

    I think we are done here, come back when you can deal with reality.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Thta isn't wthat I said .... I never said I support government sponsered theft, government CREATES property ... I support property being treated as it is, a socail institution, not a natural right.

    Also I am here in reality ... Capitalism is failing ...

    We are talking about Walmart and unions ... and I think the person who thinks that walmart workers would be better off without any collective action needs to wake up to reality ... when they are surrounded by evidence and logic showing the opposite.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    I was'nt talking about the details of the co-determination system, I'm sayin that it gives workers a REAL voice in management and it does have real economic impacts ... about the details of it, its not that relevant ... unless you're arguing its inconsequencial.
    Your entire point was that companies were better in Germany because of workers having voting leverage on the boards to determine how things are done. Im saying thats not the entire cause. Cultural impacts make a difference. Quality is valued more in Germany than in the US and value is perceived as being of higher worth in the US than in Germany. US industry focuses on productivity and quality circles tend to have less impact. Thats changing, but slowly. Competition is the reason why. US manufacturers are finding that if they have good quality AND productivity they can win over the markets.

    You really dont have a firm grasp on global economy and cultural influence in industry so again, you may want to quit while youre uh, break even I guess.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Thta isn't wthat I said .... I never said I support government sponsered theft, government CREATES property ... I support property being treated as it is, a socail institution, not a natural right.

    Also I am here in reality ... Capitalism is failing ...

    We are talking about Walmart and unions ... and I think the person who thinks that walmart workers would be better off without any collective action needs to wake up to reality ... when they are surrounded by evidence and logic showing the opposite.

    Government doesnt create ****. Government confiscates property as taxes and generally tends to waste a lot of it and currently only effectively uses about 20% of what they take in. 70% of it is given away to others--primarily democrat constituents in one form or another or foreign aid. The last 10%? Oh well they flat out waste THAT.

    Here you have fun, an Oyster farm (the last one in California) is being driven out of business with falsified data from our own government. Scientists side with Drakes Bay oyster farmer - SFGate

    PS youre going to have to be talking about government theft because right now it doesnt belong to the government and to make it part of some half assed social contract you are going to have to steal it first.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Your entire point was that companies were better in Germany because of workers having voting leverage on the boards to determine how things are done. Im saying thats not the entire cause. Cultural impacts make a difference. Quality is valued more in Germany than in the US and value is perceived as being of higher worth in the US than in Germany. US industry focuses on productivity and quality circles tend to have less impact. Thats changing, but slowly. Competition is the reason why. US manufacturers are finding that if they have good quality AND productivity they can win over the markets.

    You really dont have a firm grasp on global economy and cultural influence in industry so again, you may want to quit while youre uh, break even I guess.
    putting it to Culture is extremely weak ... Also culture doesn't exist in a vaccume, its shaped by the socio-economic institutions. 50 or 60 years ago the US was the pinnicle of quality ... Did culture just change arbitrarily? Or did the US socio-economic institutions change?

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Government doesnt create ****. Government confiscates property as taxes and generally tends to waste a lot of it and currently only effectively uses about 20% of what they take in. 70% of it is given away to others--primarily democrat constituents in one form or another or foreign aid. The last 10%? Oh well they flat out waste THAT.

    Here you have fun, an Oyster farm (the last one in California) is being driven out of business with falsified data from our own government. Scientists side with Drakes Bay oyster farmer - SFGate
    Governmetn doesn't create ****? Really Well me living in Norway and benefiting from companies like Statoil and DnBNor I beg to differ.

    Also where are you getting these statistics about government?

    Also efficiency has to be measured differently in public firms than private ... because the public must take care of negative externalities ... So for example medicare has to take those with pre-existing conditions AND without ... Statoil has to deal with enviromental issues that the public worries about and so on.

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    If socialism is so great, how come it has to be enforced through the barrel of a gun?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Walmart workers demand better wages

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    putting it to Culture is extremely weak ... Also culture doesn't exist in a vaccume, its shaped by the socio-economic institutions. 50 or 60 years ago the US was the pinnicle of quality ... Did culture just change arbitrarily? Or did the US socio-economic institutions change?
    Its really hard explaining business history to someone that doesnt know a dang thing about it. Go look at the history of WW2 post Germany and Japan marketing and industry techniques that revolutionized changes.

    First point: US manufacturing became too big and monolithic in nature. Product changes have been happening faster and faster--the agile companies that are able to retool easier become first movers. Changing product lines is a costly job.

    Second Point: The auto industry in particular allowed unions to embed themselves into procedure that was designed to create more union jobs, it hindered productivity and quality control in a variety of areas throughout the market.

    Third Point: Supply chains in Germany and Japan are smaller, allowing tighter quality control---US industries have to double and triple up on supply chains due to work stoppages for various reasons--including strikes.

    Fourth Point: The US auto industry had a lot of trouble adapting to smaller vehicle manufacture. They simply didnt know how to make smaller, lighter cars---when the Japanese had been practicing it for years before American industry even got started. The US has made up ground more or less steadily but they were behind since approximately the the late 70s.

    Fifth Point: Japanese marketing people were actually taking feedback on their vehicles and improving them. American vehicles were being done via push rather than pull marketing we were still in a productivity based market that wasnt making products then trying to find markets instead of the other way around.

    Rebutt some of that and Ill get back to you.

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