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Thread: Federal government releases long-awaited health reform rules

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    Re: Federal government releases long-awaited health reform rules

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    If you made exceptions for every substance that may arguably increase the risk of cancer you'd need a rule book that would fill the Library of Congress. Meanwhile, moderate drinking also has some salutary effects.

    Drinking Alcohol And Benefits
    So because it's complicated, we should only pick on select groups?

    Bar none, alcohol is a carcinogen.
    It causes cancer.

    Nicotine has benefits as well, does that mean it should be exempt from higher premiums to?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Federal government releases long-awaited health reform rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    So they can charge smokers up to 5x more, but what about obese people, people with diabetes that can be controlled with diet, alcohol drinkers?
    You made up that 5X. I have insurance through Illinois' ICHIP program. My premium is $670/month for a $5,200 deductible policy. (Six years ago it was $850/month for the same coverage through American Family Insurance.) I'm telling you this in order to tell you that in Illinois' ICHIP program the premium was $710 for smokers.

    You do raise an interesting point that's always troubled me. Life insurance companies often rate people depending upon their occupations, even their hobbies, because it makes actuarial sense to do so. It'll be interesting to see how AHA deals with those because it will certainly stress the system. But I guess it'll probably just be "spread the cost around."

    We're also likely to see more litigation as insurance companies try to recoup their losses when an accident is someone else's fault besides the insureds.

    It'll be interesting...
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  3. #43
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    Re: Federal government releases long-awaited health reform rules

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    You made up that 5X. I have insurance through Illinois' ICHIP program. My premium is $670/month for a $5,200 deductible policy. (Six years ago it was $850/month for the same coverage through American Family Insurance.) I'm telling you this in order to tell you that in Illinois' ICHIP program the premium was $710 for smokers.

    You do raise an interesting point that's always troubled me. Life insurance companies often rate people depending upon their occupations, even their hobbies, because it makes actuarial sense to do so. It'll be interesting to see how AHA deals with those because it will certainly stress the system. But I guess it'll probably just be "spread the cost around."

    We're also likely to see more litigation as insurance companies try to recoup their losses when an accident is someone else's fault besides the insureds.

    It'll be interesting...
    The NBC story said it, I quoted the story directly.

    The NBC story, with the relavent portion highlighted,

    Quote Originally Posted by NBC
    “In most states, these consumers can be denied individual health insurance coverage or have benefits for medical conditions excluded by insurance companies. In addition, individuals and small employers often find that they have few protections against exorbitant premiums increases.”
    charge the oldest customers as much as five times more in premiums as the youngest adult customers. HHS stuck with a proposal that allows insurers to charge the oldest patients three times as much as they charge a 21-year-old. And the rates can go up a little bit with every birthday. But smokers can be charged premiums that are five times higher under the new rules.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Federal government releases long-awaited health reform rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    So because it's complicated, we should only pick on select groups?

    Bar none, alcohol is a carcinogen.
    It causes cancer.

    Nicotine has benefits as well, does that mean it should be exempt from higher premiums to?
    Yes, I think there is value in simplicity, and in limiting how much insurance companies can jerk people around. Alcohol, used in moderation, is not in the same league with cigarettes when it comes to negative health effects. That's crystal clear.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Federal government releases long-awaited health reform rules

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Yes, I think there is value in simplicity, and in limiting how much insurance companies can jerk people around. Alcohol, used in moderation, is not in the same league with cigarettes when it comes to negative health effects. That's crystal clear.
    So consuming some carcinogens is ok, as long as more people find it acceptable, even if it increases your risk of cancer?
    Sounds like excuse making to me.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Federal government releases long-awaited health reform rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    So consuming some carcinogens is ok, as long as more people find it acceptable, even if it increases your risk of cancer?
    Sounds like excuse making to me.
    You are intentionally igoring the relative risk. Cigarettes are a far more powerful carcinogen, and also have many other serious health consequenes -- heart disease being a major one.

    Meat is also a carcinogen. Do you think you should be charged a higher insurance rate because you eat meat? Cancer Project / Factors Contributing to Cancer / Meat Consumption and Cancer Risk
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Federal government releases long-awaited health reform rules

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    You are intentionally igoring the relative risk. Cigarettes are a far more powerful carcinogen, and also have many other serious health consequenes -- heart disease being a major one.

    Meat is also a carcinogen. Do you think you should be charged a higher insurance rate because you eat meat? Cancer Project / Factors Contributing to Cancer / Meat Consumption and Cancer Risk
    Sure, considering that we're deciding to charge people more based on behavior.
    Hell alcohol is pretty darn expensive, since we can't deduce who is an excessive alcohol user, from a light user, all users of alcohol, must pay like all tobacco users.
    It's only fair.

    "CDC reports excessive alcohol consumption cost the U.S. $224 billion in 2006"

    CDC Online Newsroom - Press Release: October 17, 2011
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Federal government releases long-awaited health reform rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    So they can charge smokers up to 5x more, but what about obese people, people with diabetes that can be controlled with diet, alcohol drinkers?
    The obesity problem is one that nobody really wants to address, and my suspicion, is that it is because so many people are personally effected directly or indirectly. Our obesity rates are climbing, to the point that one in three will be considered obese in just a few years. Smokers and drinkers have been marginalized into a minority, and as we all know, it's okay to penalize smokers and drinkers, because they are the exception and not the rule. If we penalize the obese, then 1/3 of the population will have to take a look at themselves as a part of the problem, and God knows, we can't have that many people claiming personal responsibility. We just want to collectively point at the smokers as the derelicts who are ruining health care.

    Using nationally representative data on adults, the study estimates the effect of the increasing prevalence of obesity on total direct health care costs. Estimates are controlled for age, gender, race, ethnicity, marital status, education, income, health insurance status, geographic region and smoking status.
    Major Findings:
    Obesity is growing faster than any previous public health issue our nation has faced. If current trends continue, 103 million American adults will be considered obese by 2018.
    The U.S. is expected to spend $344 billion on health care costs attributable to obesity in 2018 if rates continue to increase at their current levels. Obesity‐related direct expenditures are expected to account for more than 21 percent of the nation’s direct health care spending in 2018.
    If obesity levels were held at their current rates, the U.S. could save an estimated $820 per adult in health care costs by 2018 ‐ a savings of almost $200 billion dollars.
    http://www.nccor.org/downloads/Costo...port-FINAL.pdf
    The nation's rising rate of obesity has been well-chronicled. But businesses, governments and individuals are only now coming to grips with the costs of those extra pounds, many of which are even greater than believed only a few years ago: The additional medical spending due to obesity is double previous estimates and exceeds even those of smoking, a new study shows.
    As America's waistline expands, costs soar | Reuters
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  9. #49
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    Re: Federal government releases long-awaited health reform rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    The NBC story said it, I quoted the story directly.

    The NBC story, with the relavent portion highlighted,
    That's outrageous. I hope that's just one more misunderstanding. If that is the case, this bill is a disaster as it will hit 19.3% of our population -- and they won't be able to afford 5X's no-way-no-how. So YOU and I will be paying for their insurance. What a debacle.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  10. #50
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    Re: Federal government releases long-awaited health reform rules

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    That's outrageous. I hope that's just one more misunderstanding. If that is the case, this bill is a disaster as it will hit 19.3% of our population -- and they won't be able to afford 5X's no-way-no-how. So YOU and I will be paying for their insurance. What a debacle.
    I don't know exactly what the 5x as much is, but either way, it's grossly unfair to smokers (like me, self admitted drug user), when there are tons of other vices and behaviors that go "unpunished."
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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