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Thread: Senate bill rewrite lets feds read your e-mail without warrants

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    Re: Senate bill rewrite lets feds read your e-mail without warrants

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Senate bill rewrite lets feds read your e-mail without warrants | Politics and Law - CNET News

    Daily Kos: No warrant required for private communications?


    Pat Leahy's committee has a bill up for vote soon that apparently was QUIETLY rewritten for govt snoopers to dig through your emails without ANYONE'S knowledge. How do you like your transparent government? I added the Daily Kos link so lefties wouldn't accuse me of a biased article. Apparently Leahy has a history mixed stands on privacy. I suspect that Leahy is a closet peeping-tom. Leahy is a huge asshole btw, which doesn't help either. It'll be interesting to learn how intrusive this law will be. Hopefully it'll get watered down to worthlessness.

    Hello everyone!

    I took a look at the article in the first link "Senate bill rewrite lets feds read your e-mail without warrants," written on November 20th. I noted a link within that article at the top titled "See also the follow-up story: Leahy scuttles his warrantless e-mail surveillance bill," apparently written about 8 hours later. That article, "Leahy scuttles his warrantless e-mail surveillance bill," indicates that he changed his mind after a lot of complaints (which is kind of funny in a way... as the original article indicated he changed his mind from his original stance due to a lot of complaints! ).

    A quote from the beginning of the article: "Sen. Patrick Leahy has abandoned his controversial proposal that would grant government agencies more surveillance power -- including warrantless access to Americans' e-mail accounts -- than they possess under current law.

    The Vermont Democrat said today on Twitter that he would "not support such an exception" for warrantless access
    ."

    Sometimes you have to marvel at Washington, D.C.; the: politicians can change their direction faster than the weather changes here in Colorado!
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    Re: Senate bill rewrite lets feds read your e-mail without warrants

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    There is no "section number" that is the whole point of the Patriot Act... Suspicion is enough....
    Then you obviously know little or nothing about the act itself outside of what you've read on paranoid conspiracy theory sites. Please cite the specific area of the bill that could be interprited to allow the government to do what you suggested in that original post. "Suspicion" is not "enough". A power garnered from the Patriot Act would most assuredly have to come FROM THE ACT, which means you can at the very least point out a specific section/sections that you believe could be interprited in such a way as to allow what you suggest.

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    Re: Senate bill rewrite lets feds read your e-mail without warrants

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    Methinks they're going to have a hard time getting this past SCOTUS. Warrantless access to Facebook wall posts is one thing (since they're already the internet equivalent of shouting in a room full of people), but email is private, and we've got fourth amendment protections for such things.
    They got the Patriot Act through, as well as asset forfeiture, and indefinite detention. It appears that the sky is the limit where it comes to trading liberty for the illusion of security.

    The water gets warmer and warmer, still the frog doesn't jump out.
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    Re: Senate bill rewrite lets feds read your e-mail without warrants

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Then you obviously know little or nothing about the act itself outside of what you've read on paranoid conspiracy theory sites. Please cite the specific area of the bill that could be interprited to allow the government to do what you suggested in that original post. "Suspicion" is not "enough". A power garnered from the Patriot Act would most assuredly have to come FROM THE ACT, which means you can at the very least point out a specific section/sections that you believe could be interprited in such a way as to allow what you suggest.
    Your point is moot, you want me to point out a provision in the act which allows the government to circumvent the Bill of Rights which the Patriot Act was designed to do in the first place.

    It's not a conspiracy - if the FBI (or any alphabet agency) wanted to they could break down your door, search your home and haul you off to GETMO, seize your property and sell off your assets - all that without a warrant or any suspicion. To be honest, there would be nothing you could do about it. All the government has to do is claim you're a terrorist. They don't have to present any evidence that you are - hence the purpose of the Patriot Act.

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    Re: Senate bill rewrite lets feds read your e-mail without warrants

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    Your point is moot, you want me to point out a provision in the act which allows the government to circumvent the Bill of Rights which the Patriot Act was designed to do in the first place.
    You being unable to back up your own ridiculous claims is not "my point being moot", it's you trying to retreat because you got caught spewing typical doomsayer rhetoric that was baseless as usual.

    You stated "In theory the Patriot Act would allow government to microchip individuals". Nothing about a generic "allows the government to circumvent the Bill of Rights" but SPECIFICALLY that in theory it would allow the government to microchip people.

    Provide the portions of the bill that "in theory" allow for that or admit your statement was nothing but hyperbolic conspiracy bs that had zero basis in fact.

    It's not a conspiracy - if the FBI (or any alphabet agency) wanted to they could break down your door, search your home and haul you off to GETMO, seize your property and sell off your assets - all that without a warrant or any suspicion. To be honest, there would be nothing you could do about it. All the government has to do is claim you're a terrorist. They don't have to present any evidence that you are - hence the purpose of the Patriot Act.
    Again, if that is all true then provide the sections of the Patriot Act that you claim give them this power.

    Sinmply saying "IT DOES THIS!" without any evidence or fact, what so ever, is a laughable argument.

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    Re: Senate bill rewrite lets feds read your e-mail without warrants

    I'll help you get started a bit to highlight that "sections" of the Patriot Act are not some magical myth that don't actually exist.

    Here's section 802, detailing the new definition for Domestic Terrorist

    SEC. 802. DEFINITION OF DOMESTIC TERRORISM.


    (a) DOMESTIC TERRORISM DEFINED- Section 2331 of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

    (1) in paragraph (1)(B)(iii), by striking `by assassination or kidnapping' and inserting `by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping';

    (2) in paragraph (3), by striking `and';

    (3) in paragraph (4), by striking the period at the end and inserting `; and'; and

    (4) by adding at the end the following:

    `(5) the term `domestic terrorism' means activities that--

    `(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;

    `(B) appear to be intended--

    `(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;

    `(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or

    `(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and

    `(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.'.

    Link
    As to "warrantless wiretapping", I believe yo'ure confusing "Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists" that was passed and initially allowed Bush to have the NSA doing warrantless wiretaps. Reportedly in 2007 the warrantless action was ended and sent back to the FISA courts. Later, in 2008, FISA itself was amended to loosen restrictions in terms of that kind of survelliance. So that's an issue that isn't PATRIOT's problem.

    Now, perhaps you're mixing up some of the other provisions of Patriot itself with warrantless wiretapping. Perhaps the "roving wiretaps" that had people upset. I'll help you with that too, here's section 206

    SEC. 206. ROVING SURVEILLANCE AUTHORITY UNDER THE FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE ACT OF 1978.


    Section 105(c)(2)(B) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1805(c)(2)(B)) is amended by inserting `, or in circumstances where the Court finds that the actions of the target of the application may have the effect of thwarting the identification of a specified person, such other persons,' after `specified person'.

    Link
    That's the one that allows them to essentially get a warrant on a person, rather than a specific phone, for wiretapping purposes. It still requires a warrant to place the initial taps on phones, but the issue people (rightfully) have is that some of those phones are ones routinely used by others outside of the person that caused the warrant to be issued.

    There, I've given you some head starts here in trying to find the sections backing up your assertions. You can take it from here and find yourself some actual evidence to back up your claims now that I've shown you that, yes, the Patriot Act does include actual sections people can reference.

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    Re: Senate bill rewrite lets feds read your e-mail without warrants

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    You being unable to back up your own ridiculous claims is not "my point being moot", it's you trying to retreat because you got caught spewing typical doomsayer rhetoric that was baseless as usual.

    You stated "In theory the Patriot Act would allow government to microchip individuals". Nothing about a generic "allows the government to circumvent the Bill of Rights" but SPECIFICALLY that in theory it would allow the government to microchip people.

    Provide the portions of the bill that "in theory" allow for that or admit your statement was nothing but hyperbolic conspiracy bs that had zero basis in fact.



    Again, if that is all true then provide the sections of the Patriot Act that you claim give them this power.

    Sinmply saying "IT DOES THIS!" without any evidence or fact, what so ever, is a laughable argument.
    Allow me to help.

    The Defense Authorization Act goes way, way beyond the Patriot Act to allow anyone to be locked up indefinitely without trial just on suspicion of being involved in terrorism. It is the latest of a series of threats to individual liberty that the populace has simply ignored.

    “President Obama's action today is a blight on his legacy because he will forever be known as the president who signed indefinite detention without charge or trial into law,” said Anthony D. Romero, ACLU executive director. “The statute is particularly dangerous because it has no temporal or geographic limitations, and can be used by this and future presidents to militarily detain people captured far from any battlefield. The ACLU will fight worldwide detention authority wherever we can, be it in court, in Congress, or internationally.”
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    Re: Senate bill rewrite lets feds read your e-mail without warrants

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    In theory they could and they probably do.

    You can bet your ass anyone who is released from GETMO has a microchip implant.

    It's only a matter of time before "common criminals" are chipped... Of course no one will have a problem with that, well not until they want to chip you but by then it will be too late.
    Ahh. Self-contradicting rants about conspiracy theories it is. Ok.
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    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Senate bill rewrite lets feds read your e-mail without warrants

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Allow me to help.

    The Defense Authorization Act goes way, way beyond the Patriot Act to allow anyone to be locked up indefinitely without trial just on suspicion of being involved in terrorism. It is the latest of a series of threats to individual liberty that the populace has simply ignored.
    ... but end production of Twinkies and people are right on top of that.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

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    Re: Senate bill rewrite lets feds read your e-mail without warrants

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    ... but end production of Twinkies and people are right on top of that.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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