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Hostess threatens to lay off 18,000 employees unless strike ends[W:521]

AdamT said:
Okay, so can you explain how it's the union's fault that, over the past decade, the company lost market share, ran up mountains of debt, and produced declining sales? Is it the union's fault that the underlying business was poorly run?
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Very simply, if sales go down with a union contract you have limited means to control costs from labor. You cant make pay cuts, you cant make layoffs, you cant break the contract...etc etc. A union that demands more in this environment isnt in it to provide job safety, they are there to create an us versus them mentality that eventually reaches past the profitability of the company.

Losing market share, etc isnt on the Union, but for the Union to continue to demand more when it plainly is not there to be had is naked greed.
 
tessaesque said:
It's the union's fault they refused to play ball in the 2012 restructuring issued by the CH11 bankruptcy filing. The top executives took dramatic pay cuts in April under Rayburn's leadership. Half the union workers agreed to a new contract. Half held out, and that half is at fault for the loss of 18,500 jobs. The blood is on their hands today, because they would rather 100% of the company lose 100% of their income, than 30% of the company lose 8%. Greedy, selfish, uneducated assholes that they were, they refused to see the writing on the wall.

Even after gaining access to the financial reports and status updates for the company they refused to accept the reality of the situation and stayed on strike. Even after Rayburn flat out told them all of the jobs would be lost, they bowed down to their union gods and held the line. And when Rayburn called their bluff, they actually had the nerve to stand in line and cheer. They don't care one bit about the fact that 70% of the company's staff were held hostage by their unjustifiably selfish behavior. They had two choices: accept concessions so everybody keeps their job, or refuse to cooperate so everybody loses their job. They chose option 2, so **** them. They are totally at fault for what happened today. They were given all of the information and warning needed to understand what their decisions meant, and they made the wrong one.
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I don't dispute that the union probably screwed up. All I'm saying is that it wasn't their fault that the company found itself in the position of having to slash pay and benefits just to have a chance to go a few more years before possibly going bankrupt for a third time. They wouldn't have been in that position if management hadn't sucked donkey dicks for the last 10+ years.
 
AdamT said:
The employees are the union....
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Now you know it's not that simple, the Union speaks for the employees through representatives. There are contracts involved, etc.
 
Note: 18,000 empolyees @$20/hr for a 2000-hour year = $659,000,000.

One CEO apparently, at maximum, and who is no longer there = $2,500,000.

Also note: a company struggling in a competitive market does NOT, repeat, NOT necessarily indicate "mismanagement."
 
AdamT said:
I don't dispute that the union probably screwed up. All I'm saying is that it wasn't their fault that the company found itself in the position of having to slash pay and benefits just to have a chance to go a few more years before possibly going bankrupt for a third time. They wouldn't have been in that position if management hadn't sucked donkey dicks for the last 10+ years.
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And for the third time: New management, new CH11 filing, new CEO, new structuring.

The unions had the financials in front of them. They had the power. They just terminated 18,500 out of nothing but greed and selfish idiocy. Keep defending them by discussing failures of people who aren't even controlling the company anymore, and keep ignoring the reality of the current situation if you must.
 
OpportunityCost said:
Very simply, if sales go down with a union contract you have limited means to control costs from labor. You cant make pay cuts, you cant make layoffs, you cant break the contract...etc etc. A union that demands more in this environment isnt in it to provide job safety, they are there to create an us versus them mentality that eventually reaches past the profitability of the company.

Losing market share, etc isnt on the Union, but for the Union to continue to demand more when it plainly is not there to be had is naked greed.
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The underlined could be considered part of what caused the loss of market share.
 
AdamT said:
I don't dispute that the union probably screwed up. All I'm saying is that it wasn't their fault that the company found itself in the position of having to slash pay and benefits just to have a chance to go a few more years before possibly going bankrupt for a third time. They wouldn't have been in that position if management hadn't sucked donkey dicks for the last 10+ years.
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That's true but couldn't the same be generally said about GM?
 
Tessa has this one nailed. Those who go against here just look foolish for supporting a loser union that cost more non-union members their jobs than union members.
 
Looks like its over for the Twinkie? I'd laugh if Bain came in and saved the Twinkie. Think Michelle obama will promote a govt bail out?
 
AdamT said:
Isn't amazing that when businesses fail it's always the workers' fault -- never management's fault for being ****ty at managing the company. The fact is that Interstate Bakeries (Hostess' parent company) has been failing for a long time due to its inability to adapt to a changing marketplace. That's not to say that the union was right in digging in its heels, but let's not ignore management's share of the blame.

A 2003 article pointing to IBC's management problem: Interstate Half Baked

They went bankrupt in '04 and emerged as Hostess Brands, then nearly went bankrupt again last year, before finally failing this year.
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But all that is irrelevant. If the company is broke, its broke. If the employees sit home drawing generous unemployment and want to blame the management for their being unemployed they certainly can do so. All of management will be laid off too.

Everyone makes excuses, but excuses are worthless. If the job isn't worth $18 per hour to them, then it isn't worth it regardless of the reason.
 
AdamT said:
I don't dispute that the union probably screwed up. All I'm saying is that it wasn't their fault that the company found itself in the position of having to slash pay and benefits just to have a chance to go a few more years before possibly going bankrupt for a third time. They wouldn't have been in that position if management hadn't sucked donkey dicks for the last 10+ years.
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The same management that signed previous union contracts that were probably unhealthy for the profit margin of the business? Funny how that works.
 
IMHO HHostess should have adapted to the changing environment. I mean Wonder Bread really seriously. Who eats that stuff anymore?
 
Hostess threatens to lay off 18,000 employees unless strike ends

At least the union didn't have to settle for that two dollar wage cut.
 
winston53660 said:
IMHO HHostess should have adapted to the changing environment. I mean Wonder Bread really seriously. Who eats that stuff anymore?
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Me. Well, at least until now.....
 
winston53660 said:
IMHO HHostess should have adapted to the changing environment. I mean Wonder Bread really seriously. Who eats that stuff anymore?
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I do.

Punish Hostess for marketing - that is exact what the employees should sacrifice their jobs for. That's the new purpose of strikes. To cause all employees to lose their jobs to punish management who then also lose their jobs for bad management decisions. The murder-suicide concept of justice.
 
Consider the OTHER bread brands baked by Hostess;Nature’s Pride, Merita, Home Pride, Butternut, and Beefsteak®
 
winston53660 said:
IMHO HHostess should have adapted to the changing environment. I mean Wonder Bread really seriously. Who eats that stuff anymore?
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When was the last time you saw a Wonder Bread commercial? In the early days of television they were and hourly event. Same with all their products.

You know, all of their stuff has been knocked off. Nevermind that the knock offs taste like old garbage, they're cheaper. They failed to advertise and failed to keep control of their brands.
 
clownboy said:
When was the last time you saw a Wonder Bread commercial? In the early days of television they were and hourly event. Same with all their products.

You know, all of their stuff has been knocked off. Nevermind that the knock offs taste like old garbage, they're cheaper. They failed to advertise and failed to keep control of their brands.
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I'll take a Little Debbie Swiss Roll over a Ho Ho any day, though I will miss Suzy Qs. Not that I've had any of it in quite some time.
 
Don't worry. For most products China will pick up the slack. It increasingly is the source of processed American food.

I'm sure it will be extremely difficult, but I'm fairly confident China can find people somewhere to work for $18 an hour.
 
clownboy said:
When was the last time you saw a Wonder Bread commercial? In the early days of television they were and hourly event. Same with all their products.

You know, all of their stuff has been knocked off. Nevermind that the knock offs taste like old garbage, they're cheaper. They failed to advertise and failed to keep control of their brands.
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Locally, Dallas, we also had Rainbow Bread. It was a knock off of Wonder Bread. My dad use to do the animations for the commercials.

But what I think is that Hostess and Rainbow failed to keep up with the time product wise more so than marketing wise.
 
joko104 said:
Don't worry. For most products China will pick up the slack. It increasingly is the source of processed American food.

I'm sure it will be extremely difficult, but I'm fairly confident China can find people somewhere to work for $18 an hour.
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Why is it that the people who are proponents of "free market" then start talking about China. That's not a free market, the government artificially holds wages down so that they can get their profit.
 
winston53660 said:
Locally, Dallas, we also had Rainbow Bread. It was a knock off of Wonder Bread. My dad use to do the animations for the commercials.

But what I think is that Hostess and Rainbow failed to keep up with the time product wise more so than marketing wise.
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Yeah, that and patent infringement was a lot easier in decades past, allowing their product line to be diluted by knock offs.
 
winston53660 said:
Locally, Dallas, we also had Rainbow Bread. It was a knock off of Wonder Bread. My dad use to do the animations for the commercials.

But what I think is that Hostess and Rainbow failed to keep up with the time product wise more so than marketing wise.
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Perhaps it has more to do with their products being twice as expensive for consumers than competitor products during a period when the consumers are more price conscious. Walmart has their knockoffs of the Hostess snackcakes; Little Debbie has some comparable cakes at a cheaper price, etc. They may not have tasted 100% the same, but a two minute sugar and cinnamon fix isn't an upscale experience worthy of an upscale price.
 
winston53660 said:
Locally, Dallas, we also had Rainbow Bread. It was a knock off of Wonder Bread. My dad use to do the animations for the commercials.
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Here's an interesting aside: my aunt's first husband designed the Wonder Bread wrapper and also the wrapper for lifesavers. That was back in the day when artists actually got a very small percentage of sales in compensation for their work. The Wonder Bread wrapper has never changed in all those years (nor has the original lifesavers wrapper), and that graphic artist made a not-so-small fortune from those two labels. Not sure exactly how much, but I believe it's in the tens of millions of dollars.
 
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