• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Hostess threatens to lay off 18,000 employees unless strike ends[W:521]

Zalatix said:
And how do you propose that they "make the union workers feel like the selfish, irrational little assholes they are"? Felony harassment? Violence? What's the game plan here?
Click to expand...

Are you saying that NON-union employees utilizing UNION protesting tactics would be unacceptable?
 
MaggieD said:
I just can't believe it.

I'm thinking it's not over yet. Perhaps the company is counting on the bankruptcy judge imposing that contract on the workers....? I don't know if they can do that, but from this link is appears they can actually throw it out:



Bankruptcy judge throws out AMR pilots' contract - Yahoo! Finance

Only about 7,000 of Hostess Brands' 18,000 employees are union. I'd imagine the other 11,000 are pissed as hell.

If the union doesn't have something up its sleeve here, I think they're the worst union on planet earth. If they think they sent a message to other employers with their putting this company out of business, I'm thinking it's the other way round -- this sent a message to other employees at other companies that their union is screwing with their livelihood.
Click to expand...

The bankruptcy judge can throw out contracts. I have seen some tangent references in some of the articles that suggested to me that the Court had already modified the contract as part of the reorganization. It is not clear to me why the Court would not have ordered the Union back to work if that was the case. I think the management did what they had to do. Since the workers are spread nationally, I doubt the closure will be even a bump in the road economically. It is a shame though. It feels like the Union leaders purposefully drove them into liquidation out of spite, screwing everybody in the process.
 
tessaesque said:
"You're selfish assholes who cost the rest of us our jobs."

Should suffice right nicely.
Click to expand...

If I read the news reports correctly there won't be any company that the union can bargain with. It is to be completely liquidated. I would bet that even now the union leadership is telling it's member that this is all a ploy on the part of the company leadership.

No doubt the union activists from national labor organizations that advised the union during this process (these guys are ring tailed radicals) have packed up their bags and left town having completely destroyed both company and union. I'd bet that the NLRB board egged them on as well.

Emerging from bankruptcy is only possible if the company has the assets to go through that process. Apparently Hostess does not and can't find any financing for it.
 
on channel 19 news in cincinnati, they are interviewing a Union steward who is whining about the Queensgate factory being liquidated. Hope and Change bitchslaps people who I bet voted for Obama. Sucks to lose your job right before the holidays.

damn, given all the Ho Hos I have bought I cannot believe the place is losing money!!
 
LowDown said:
If I read the news reports correctly there won't be any company that the union can bargain with. It is to be completely liquidated. I would bet that even now the union leadership is telling it's member that this is all a ploy on the part of the company leadership.

No doubt the union activists from national labor organizations that advised the union during this process (these guys are ring tailed radicals) have packed up their bags and left town having completely destroyed both company and union. I'd bet that the NLRB board egged them on as well.

Emerging from bankruptcy is only possible if the company has the assets to go through that process. Apparently Hostess does not and can't find any financing for it.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, I feel you might be right. Do you think the 18,500 employees would have done this if they knew they were going to end up in the unemployment line. The union did not help them here. So sad.
 
TurtleDude said:
on channel 19 news in cincinnati, they are interviewing a Union steward who is whining about the Queensgate factory being liquidated. Hope and Change bitchslaps people who I bet voted for Obama. Sucks to lose your job right before the holidays.

damn, given all the Ho Hos I have bought I cannot believe the place is losing money!!
Click to expand...

Maybe they should start selling door to door like girl scouts...raise the money, buy the company and brand, then they can do whatever they want.
 
LowDown said:
If I read the news reports correctly there won't be any company that the union can bargain with. It is to be completely liquidated. I would bet that even now the union leadership is telling it's member that this is all a ploy on the part of the company leadership.

No doubt the union activists from national labor organizations that advised the union during this process (these guys are ring tailed radicals) have packed up their bags and left town having completely destroyed both company and union. I'd bet that the NLRB board egged them on as well.

Emerging from bankruptcy is only possible if the company has the assets to go through that process. Apparently Hostess does not and can't find any financing for it.
Click to expand...

They actually did have emergency financing, from a hedge fund that was already one of their creditors.
It's just that large work stoppages like this dry up revenue, rather quickly.
 
Zalatix said:
And how do you propose that they "make the union workers feel like the selfish, irrational little assholes they are"? Felony harassment? Violence? What's the game plan here?
Click to expand...

Nothing short of a full on Viking assault. Burn every home, steal the silver and gold, and take all survivors as slaves and prostitutes to be sold and bartered to the Persians.
 
TurtleDude said:
on channel 19 news in cincinnati, they are interviewing a Union steward who is whining about the Queensgate factory being liquidated. Hope and Change bitchslaps people who I bet voted for Obama. Sucks to lose your job right before the holidays.

damn, given all the Ho Hos I have bought I cannot believe the place is losing money!!
Click to expand...

LOL now you can give that money to a gym to burn them HoHo's off you so you can see your HoHo again :lamo

IIRC from the stories when they filed for reorganization, they were weighted down with old debt from bad decisions years ago but otherwise would be profitable. Back then they were saying that there is a ton of value in the brand so a liquidation would not necessarily short the consumers out of anything in the long run.
 
American said:
It wouldn't be employee owned, it would be union owned.
Click to expand...

There are some employee-owned companies. However, the employees would have to buy the assets of the company to do so.

Creditors are entitled to their money as are stockholders for whatever value the inventory, equipment and property is worth. If employees could just take over companies no vendors would supply companies, no one would invest in companies and no bank would loan money to any company.

For how the government re-wrote bankruptcy law for GM, financing and investing in GM would be a very bad gamble as the President could just decide again that you got nothing at all.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
They actually did have emergency financing, from a hedge fund that was already one of their creditors.
It's just that large work stoppages like this dry up revenue, rather quickly.
Click to expand...

They also risk permanent lose of shelf space - which is a real battle in the retail industry. Once space for Hostess products if filled with other products, there is no assurance that business will give that space back to Hostess products - regardless of who is making them.
 
joko104 said:
They also risk permanent lose of shelf space - which is a real battle in the retail industry. Once space for Hostess products if filled with other products, there is no assurance that business will give that space back to Hostess products - regardless of who is making them.
Click to expand...

I imagine some notable and not so notable companies will buy up the various brands.
Twinkies aren't dead, just delayed at the moment.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
I imagine some notable and not so notable companies will buy up the various brands.
Twinkies aren't dead, just delayed at the moment.
Click to expand...

I prefer the little debbie brand of twinkies(golden cremes) and ho-hos(swiss cake rolls).
 
Ah, the modern union fully exposed for all to see.

Because we all know of course, making Twinkies is a $20-per-hour job if there ever was one.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Ya I grew up on little debbie to, but the Twinkies brand is very valuable.
Click to expand...

Absoutely. How else can you explain the normal psychokinetic energy in the New York area? Only a Twinkie will do, only a Twinkie.
 
Samhain said:
Absoutely. How else can you explain the normal psychokinetic energy in the New York area? Only a Twinkie will do, only a Twinkie.
Click to expand...

 
Isn't amazing that when businesses fail it's always the workers' fault -- never management's fault for being ****ty at managing the company. The fact is that Interstate Bakeries (Hostess' parent company) has been failing for a long time due to its inability to adapt to a changing marketplace. That's not to say that the union was right in digging in its heels, but let's not ignore management's share of the blame.

A 2003 article pointing to IBC's management problem: Interstate Half Baked

They went bankrupt in '04 and emerged as Hostess Brands, then nearly went bankrupt again last year, before finally failing this year.
 
Last edited:
AdamT said:
Isn't amazing that when businesses fail it's always the workers' fault -- never management's fault for being ****ty at managing the company. The fact is that Interstate Bakeries (Hostess' parent company) has been failing for a long time due to its inability to adapt to a changing marketplace. That's not to say that the union was right in digging in its heels, but let's not ignore management's share of the blame.

A 2003 article pointing to IBC's management problem: Interstate Half Baked
Click to expand...

Who's saying it's the employees's fault? Nevertheless, when unions are involved, it's usually not just management's fault either. If there were no union, I'd blame management completely.
 
AdamT said:
Isn't amazing that when businesses fail it's always the workers' fault -- never management's fault for being ****ty at managing the company. The fact is that Interstate Bakeries (Hostess' parent company) has been failing for a long time due to its inability to adapt to a changing marketplace. That's not to say that the union was right in digging in its heels, but let's not ignore management's share of the blame.

A 2003 article pointing to IBC's management problem: Interstate Half Baked
Click to expand...

This filing began in January, the CEO was replaced in March, and all signs indicate that Rayburn was on the right path. Four top executives took a 99.999% pay cut, and four others took 40-80% pay cuts in line with restructuring. Nearly half of the union workers had agreed to the new contract. The other half, approximately 4,000 employees out of 18,500 decided to hold out at the advice of their union. The result was what we have before us today. 4,000 greedy assholes led by a destructive, wholly inaccurate union have now successfully killed 18,500 jobs.

What else would you have had the CEO do? Cut the salaries of non-union employees by 50% during the shut down in hopes of keeping the company alive until the 4,000 came to their senses? Fire all non-union employees in hopes of keeping the company alive until the 4,000 came to their senses? Caved to the demands of 1/2 of the union workers, comprising less than 25% of the total work force, even knowing that such a cave would make the business less likely to acquire funding and security for a stable outlook?

The union was wrong here, and it should be made absolutely clear to them that they were wrong.

Comparing what is happening in this bankruptcy filing to what happened damn near 10 years ago is a dishonest means of trying to paint current management as the catalyst for this. Rayburn has been on the job since March of this year and by all appearances meant to save Hostess. Too bad the unions cared less for the company they "helped build" than the man who'd only been there 7 months.

But yeah, make management the villain here, in this situation, in this context, given the facts available. Whatever spin you have to come up with to make it happen is totally cool. What the hell does reality matter, anyway?
 
American said:
Who's saying it's the employees's fault? Nevertheless, when unions are involved, it's usually not just management's fault either. If there were no union, I'd blame management completely.
Click to expand...

The employees are the union....
 
tessaesque said:
This filing began in January, the CEO was replaced in March, and all signs indicate that Rayburn was on the right path. Four top executives took a 99.999% pay cut, and four others took 40-80% pay cuts in line with restructuring. Nearly half of the union workers had agreed to the new contract. The other half, approximately 4,000 employees out of 18,500 decided to hold out at the advice of their union. The result was what we have before us today. 4,000 greedy assholes led by a destructive, wholly inaccurate union have now successfully killed 18,500 jobs.

What else would you have had the CEO do? Cut the salaries of non-union employees by 50% during the shut down in hopes of keeping the company alive until the 4,000 came to their senses? Fire all non-union employees in hopes of keeping the company alive until the 4,000 came to their senses? Caved to the demands of 1/2 of the union workers, comprising less than 25% of the total work force, even knowing that such a cave would make the business less likely to acquire funding and security for a stable outlook?

The union was wrong here, and it should be made absolutely clear to them that they were wrong.

Comparing what is happening in this bankruptcy filing to what happened damn near 10 years ago is a dishonest means of trying to paint current management as the catalyst for this. Rayburn has been on the job since March of this year and by all appearances meant to save Hostess. Too bad the unions cared less for the company they "helped build" than the man who'd only been there 7 months.

But yeah, make management the villain here, in this situation, in this context, given the facts available. Whatever spin you have to come up with to make it happen is totally cool. What the hell does reality matter, anyway?
Click to expand...

Okay, so can you explain how it's the union's fault that, over the past decade, the company lost market share, ran up mountains of debt, and produced declining sales? Is it the union's fault that the underlying business was poorly run?
 
AdamT said:
Okay, so can you explain how it's the union's fault that, over the past decade, the company lost market share, ran up mountains of debt, and produced declining sales? Is it the union's fault that the underlying business was poorly run?
Click to expand...

It's the union's fault they refused to play ball in the 2012 restructuring issued by the CH11 bankruptcy filing. The top executives took dramatic pay cuts in April under Rayburn's leadership. Half the union workers agreed to a new contract. Half held out, and that half is at fault for the loss of 18,500 jobs. The blood is on their hands today, because they would rather 100% of the company lose 100% of their income, than 30% of the company lose 8%. Greedy, selfish, uneducated assholes that they were, they refused to see the writing on the wall.

Even after gaining access to the financial reports and status updates for the company they refused to accept the reality of the situation and stayed on strike. Even after Rayburn flat out told them all of the jobs would be lost, they bowed down to their union gods and held the line. And when Rayburn called their bluff, they actually had the nerve to stand in line and cheer. They don't care one bit about the fact that 70% of the company's staff were held hostage by their unjustifiably selfish behavior. They had two choices: accept concessions so everybody keeps their job, or refuse to cooperate so everybody loses their job. They chose option 2, so **** them. They are totally at fault for what happened today. They were given all of the information and warning needed to understand what their decisions meant, and they made the wrong one.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom