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Thread: Hostess threatens to lay off 18,000 employees unless strike ends[W:521]

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    re: Hostess threatens to lay off 18,000 employees unless strike ends[W:521]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zalatix View Post
    Unions are fighting for better wages.
    The Union was being greedy in the sight of a failing company.
    They screwed their members over as well as another's Unions members and the non-union workers as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zalatix View Post
    Should I point out how wages have failed to keep up with productivity growth?
    Give it a shot slick.
    You will be wrong from the get.
    But I do not expect a socialist to understand that.

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    re: Hostess threatens to lay off 18,000 employees unless strike ends[W:521]

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    No, because Twinkies make kids fat.
    She could make them debut a new line of broccoli twinkies with creamy soy filling.

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    re: Hostess threatens to lay off 18,000 employees unless strike ends[W:521]

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Isn't amazing that when businesses fail it's always the workers' fault -- never management's fault for being ****ty at managing the company. The fact is that Interstate Bakeries (Hostess' parent company) has been failing for a long time due to its inability to adapt to a changing marketplace. That's not to say that the union was right in digging in its heels, but let's not ignore management's share of the blame.

    A 2003 article pointing to IBC's management problem: Interstate Half Baked

    They went bankrupt in '04 and emerged as Hostess Brands, then nearly went bankrupt again last year, before finally failing this year.
    For Pete's sake!


    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    This filing began in January, the CEO was replaced in March, and all signs indicate that Rayburn was on the right path. Four top executives took a 99.999% pay cut, and four others took 40-80% pay cuts in line with restructuring. Nearly half of the union workers had agreed to the new contract. The other half, approximately 4,000 employees out of 18,500 decided to hold out at the advice of their union. The result was what we have before us today. 4,000 greedy assholes led by a destructive, wholly inaccurate union have now successfully killed 18,500 jobs.

    What else would you have had the CEO do? Cut the salaries of non-union employees by 50% during the shut down in hopes of keeping the company alive until the 4,000 came to their senses? Fire all non-union employees in hopes of keeping the company alive until the 4,000 came to their senses? Caved to the demands of 1/2 of the union workers, comprising less than 25% of the total work force, even knowing that such a cave would make the business less likely to acquire funding and security for a stable outlook?

    The union was wrong here, and it should be made absolutely clear to them that they were wrong.

    Comparing what is happening in this bankruptcy filing to what happened damn near 10 years ago is a dishonest means of trying to paint current management as the catalyst for this. Rayburn has been on the job since March of this year and by all appearances meant to save Hostess. Too bad the unions cared less for the company they "helped build" than the man who'd only been there 7 months.

    But yeah, make management the villain here, in this situation, in this context, given the facts available. Whatever spin you have to come up with to make it happen is totally cool. What the hell does reality matter, anyway?

    What she said.

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    re: Hostess threatens to lay off 18,000 employees unless strike ends[W:521]

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    For Pete's sake!


    What she said.
    So your position is that management bears NO responsibility for the failed business?
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    re: Hostess threatens to lay off 18,000 employees unless strike ends[W:521]

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    So your position is that management bears NO responsibility for the failed business?
    The run up to failure, yes. Considering the current management has only been online since March this year and has been trying to save the business, also yes, this one is on the union.

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    re: Hostess threatens to lay off 18,000 employees unless strike ends[W:521]

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    So your position is that management bears NO responsibility for the failed business?
    They probably do . . . but since they're a privately-held company, they're reaping what they've sown. If the union couldn't get past the blame game, shame on them. "It's their fault!!!" WTF difference does it make if the company is going down?

    The union could have chosen to bite the bullet and be part of the solution. They chose to become a part of the problem. Defined benefit pension plans are going to be the death of us. They really are.

    What sense did it make to "fire themselves" from their jobs? Take the offer and look for new ones if you think you can do better...in the meantime getting a paycheck.

    No? Okay then. No paycheck. Unemployment probably 75% of what the new offer was, if that. No healthcare. No pension contributions. These older guys who think their pension is safe? They are going to be in for a very pleasant surprise. What's projected they would earn at retirement? Frozen now. They were penny-wise and dollar foolish.

    And I don't care whose fault it was.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    re: Hostess threatens to lay off 18,000 employees unless strike ends[W:521]

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    And this is why unions exist. So that those who have money and power cannot exercise that power over everyone else with impunity.
    One word- SCABS

    Don't want to work? We'll find someone who does.


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    re: Hostess threatens to lay off 18,000 employees unless strike ends[W:521]

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    They probably do . . . but since they're a privately-held company, they're reaping what they've sown. If the union couldn't get past the blame game, shame on them. "It's their fault!!!" WTF difference does it make if the company is going down?
    It doesn’t have to be about blame, or even who’s fault it is. I have walked away from business when someone my company (self-employed) was doing work for say “my sales have dropped, I can’t afford to pay what the contract says, you have to lower your rates, it is the only way I can make my business viable”. The hell I “have to”, that is not how market economies work.

    EDIT: I understand this raises issues with the concept of unions. However there is pretty solid evidence of the concept having a lot of merit, adjusting for practical issues in free market economy implementation, the gap between theoretical and the ugly bits of the actual.
    Last edited by Dwight; 11-16-12 at 03:41 PM.

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    re: Hostess threatens to lay off 18,000 employees unless strike ends[W:521]

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    They probably do . . . but since they're a privately-held company, they're reaping what they've sown. If the union couldn't get past the blame game, shame on them. "It's their fault!!!" WTF difference does it make if the company is going down?

    The union could have chosen to bite the bullet and be part of the solution. They chose to become a part of the problem. Defined benefit pension plans are going to be the death of us. They really are.

    What sense did it make to "fire themselves" from their jobs? Take the offer and look for new ones if you think you can do better...in the meantime getting a paycheck.

    No? Okay then. No paycheck. Unemployment probably 75% of what the new offer was, if that. No healthcare. No pension contributions. These older guys who think their pension is safe? They are going to be in for a very pleasant surprise. What's projected they would earn at retirement? Frozen now. They were penny-wise and dollar foolish.

    And I don't care whose fault it was.
    Just playing the devil's advocate here because I think that most modern unions blow, but from the labor perspective -- big picture -- you don't have much bargaining power if you demonstrate 100% of the time that you will cave in and accept management's demands.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    re: Hostess threatens to lay off 18,000 employees unless strike ends[W:521]

    Hmmm interesting:

    Rather, the issue here is the corporation itself. The first clue that something is a bit odd at Hostess comes from the company’s description of its chief financial officer, whom we are told:

    is responsible for driving the planned priorities of the finance organization in both the front and back office and regularly collaborates with the marketing, sales and operations departments.

    Resist the temptation to mock the consulting-firm-speak (“driving the planned priorities?”), and ask yourself what’s missing. Don’t C.F.O.’s normally work closely with the treasury departments, too?

    Turns out that Hostess has no treasury department. It apparently doesn’t have anyone who can perform treasury functions at all.

    The company has asked the bankruptcy court for permission to hire FTI Consulting to do the work. Apparently Hostess does not have much of a finance department either, since FTI is also providing employees for that department.

    If approved, FTI will provide three people to staff Hostess’ treasury department. The interim treasurer gets monthly fees that work out to an annual salary of $780,000. His two deputies get $660,000 per year, each.

    The finance department group gets paid hourly rates that top out at $895 per hour. You might think that would supplant the need for a financial adviser in the case, but Hostess is asking to retain one of those, too.

    And then there is the $1.25 million completion fee that FTI will get at the end of the case.

    At some point I think the creditors might want to consider asking Hostess to fill some of these positions the old-fashioned way. Or it might even consider taking out a Craigslist ad.



    Hostess Has a Lot of Debt, but Few in Finance - NYTimes.com

    Were these guys willing to take a pay cut?

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